Quiz on Israeli Democracy

IntenseOperator

DeweyOxburger
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I personally don't think we should be supporting Israel. Why support a country that covertly spies on us in an atttempt to steal vital defense and intelligence information.

With that said...

(not in any way expert on this subject)

Don't all the countries surrounding Israel have written into their "constitutions" the destruction of said country?

Arafat has had many opportunities to close this problem. He said himself, if he ever made a deal with Israel, he would be signing his death warrant.

I think there are too many on BOTH sides interested in the continuance of disorder.

Much like the SAME in this country on many left/right issues.
 

Nolan Dalla

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IntenseOperator said:
Don't all the countries surrounding Israel have written into their "constitutions" the destruction of said country?

***No. First of all, most Middle Eastern nations do not have a "Constitution." That leads to the next question -- "What is the official policy of the country?" Isreal is surrounded by four primary nations -- Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. Three of those four nations have accepted Isreal's existence -- Leanon, Jordan, and Egypt. Syria remains mostly hostile towards Israel. Jordan, in particular, took great risks under King Hussein in adaopting a moderate policy towards Israel -- especially when considering a large majority of Jordanians are Palestinians. Lebanon still has occupation forces and is divided, but the government of Lebanon is neutral on Israel. Egypt has signed treaties with Israel in the past (it was the first Middle Eastern nation to accpet Israel) and has no political or military objectives in the region. So, this statement above is simply untrue.


Arafat has had many opportunities to close this problem. He said himself, if he ever made a deal with Israel, he would be signing his death warrant.

***Again -- this is an untrue statement. Arafat may have said something like this (I have no idea) but his actions since 1992 clearly prove he was willing to negotiate. Arafat supported the 1992 Oslo Peace accords (it was Isreali hardliners who opposed peace). Those accords and subsequent negotiations broke down in 1996 when Israeli PM Netanyahu balked at the agreements and walked away. Arafat was ALWAYS there at the negotiation table with Isreali leaders. He also made the historic visit to Washington in (1999 I think) with President Clinton and the Isreali PM. Keep in mind THERE WERE NO SUICIDE ATTACKS OR BOMBERS between 1996 and 1999, when the negiations were going on and the Palestianian Authority was being formed. Hardliner Ariel Sharon broke the peace when in 200 he stormed the Temple Mount, shocking Palestinians and causes a complete reverse of the peace process. Sharon has ABSOLUTELY no desire to negotiate because his support comes from the reactionary right wing. Now, this war criminal is being charged with bribery in his own country and could be removed from office. How fitting. Yet -- Arafat is given all the blame. Incredible.


I think there are too many on BOTH sides interested in the continuance of disorder.

***I agree with this statement.



-- Nolan Dalla
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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I think H-10s views are interesting--since we get then 1st hand and Nolan has experience in that area from his prior employment so enjoy getting hands on info from sources other than media.

Other than that I try to apply common sense and one fact that always comes back it makes no differnce what country you speak of--not just Palistine. I would challenge anyone to name any country where Muslims exists that they have not targeted civilians
with terrorist activities.
-----and one other question
If Isreal and the people suddenly disappeared tomorrow do you think it would end Islamic terrorism in rest of world.
and flip side--if Islamic fundalmentalist disappeared tomorrow what impact would it have on terrorism world wide.
 

gardenweasel

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dtb

dtb

i think you really hit on something....regardless of how the israel/palestinian issue plays out,the terrorism will never end...

it gives these miserable s.o.b.`s some purpose in their retched lives...

one thing that always bothered me....maybe someone can explain...if palestine is this ghetto....this horrible place where the living conditions are deplorable and life isn`t worth living(and i`m sure this is the case),why isn`t the rest of the muslim world helping them?...the muslim world is very large....i can`t believe that the whole entirety of their society is so bankrupt....with all the natural resources...that they can`t help their muslim brothers...

you have some fairly prosperous countries(saudi arabia immediately comes to mind)....why don`t they inject some of that oil money into the palestinian society to make what they do have better....it`s not a huge place...i`d think saudi arabia and the rest of the muslim world could do an awful lot to alleviate the deplorable living conditions there...

could it be because the arafat`s and their ilk will siphon the resources off and use them to further their own ends?....

or is it because they really don`t care about the palestinians?.....they`d just rather hate the jews than try and help their own?...
 
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THE KOD

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Re: dtb

Re: dtb

gardenweasel said:
you have some fairly prosperous countries(saudi arabia immediately comes to mind)....why don`t they inject some of that oil money into the palestinian society to make what they do have better....it`s not a huge place...i`d think saudi arabia and the rest of the muslim world could do an awful lot to alleviate the deplorable living conditions there...

could it be because the arafat`s and their ilk will syphon the resources off and use them to further their own ends?....

or is it because they really don`t care about the palestinians?.....they`d just rather hate the jews than try and help their own?...
............................................................................

gw

thats some good questions there. I think they believe that
Arafat would use the money to build some huge palace.

And just let the rest of them suffer.

KOD
 

Nolan Dalla

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***My replies are prefaced with astericks:


FROM DOGS THAT BARK:
I think H-10s views are interesting--since we get then 1st hand and Nolan has experience in that area from his prior employment so enjoy getting hands on info from sources other than media.

***Just o set the record straight. I worked and lived in Eastern Europe for two year's, then spent seven years working for the Turkish Embassy in Washington. Although Turkey is a Muslim country, it is really not "Middle Eastern." So, I have no direct experience in this region.


If Isreal and the people suddenly disappeared tomorrow do you think it would end Islamic terrorism in rest of world.

***Yes. Before the creation of Isreal, the region had been peaceful for many years. Contrast this with wars all over Europe, Asia, and even the United States. This is the "lynch pin" that unites 1/5th of the world's population AGAINST the United States. American military and economic penetration and domination of some foreigh markets is another factor that would have to be dealt with, but the Israel issue is first and foremost.


FROM GARDENWEASEL:

i think you really hit on something....regardless of how the israel/palestinian issue plays out,the terrorism will never end...
it gives these miserable s.o.b.`s some purpose in their retched lives...

***Terrorism is practiced in many nations and regions -- Spain (Basque seperatists), Indonesia, Ireland, and even the United States (not common, but it happens). Terrorism wil never go away. But it is not confned to Islam nor the Middle East.


one thing that always bothered me....maybe someone can explain...if palestine is this ghetto....this horrible place where the living conditions are deplorable and life isn`t worth living(and i`m sure this is the case),why isn`t the rest of the muslim world helping them?...the muslim world is very large....i can`t believe that the whole entirety of their society is so bankrupt....with all the natural resources...that they can`t help their muslim brothers...

***But Arab nations DO financially support Palestine. There have been fund drives (telethons) in several countries to raise support. Several nations give Palestine aid -- in the form of money, medical support, and other forsm of assistance. To say that other Arab nations do not lend support to Palestine is simply WRONG. Of course, this again proves that the US media does a terrible job reporting the reality of the siuation.


you have some fairly prosperous countries(saudi arabia immediately comes to mind)....why don`t they inject some of that oil money into the palestinian society to make what they do have better....it`s not a huge place...i`d think saudi arabia and the rest of the muslim world could do an awful lot to alleviate the deplorable living conditions there...

***Financial aid can only do so much. Without infrastructure -- private companies, colleges, institutions, banks, and government to implement an economic system, the people will remain DEPENDENT on hand outs. That's the problem in Palestine. The Israeli Army did a terrible thing when they obliterated the Palestinian Authority complex, which was the base of building a new society. Now, those building are in rubble. SARCASM COMING: It really did a lot of good to detroy the PA's complex and smach all those compters and offices -- that really did a lot of stop terrorism, didn't it?


could it be because the arafat`s and their ilk will siphon the resources off and use them to further their own ends?....

***Nonsense. Do you see any palaces or convoys of Rolls Royces associated with Yassir Arafat? The man has money and controls a large budget, but to suggest he is profiting from his postion is unfounded and baseless. This man could have run off and retired in France or Switzerland years ago and lived well, but he stays and fights for his people, beacuase that's what he belives in. You may dislike and disagree with Arafat, but to suggest he is a theif, is flat out wrong. We have penty of liars and theives here -- witness Tyco, Martha Stewart, et al.

-- Nolan Dalla
 

djv

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Nolan There is no doubt the real problems started after WWII. Sorry to say we were a part of them. We do have trouble sometimes getting off our white horses. Then admitting we should just take care of America and not try to police the whole world. It just builds more hate towards America. Then the terroist of the world take the amunition we give them and use it agianst us. Then we blow a few places up and say there it's under control. But it's really not. Just a circle that no one wants to try and handle in a differant way.
If we however do not play a better role in this situation. It will stay a killing zone. We were started in right direction. But nothing has been done since late 2000 that really helps bring any pieace.
And forsure rocks and bombs straped on kids will never win against tanks and planes.
 
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gardenweasel

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nolan

nolan

nobody said that arafat was a thief....just a fanatic....

and to say that israel alone is the cause for all muslim terrorism is absurd...and to intimate that the extinction of israel will solve the problems in the middle east and for muslim extremism in general is even more ridiculous...

and if this is the best that the muslim world can do to help a tiny nation like palestine,then shame on them...i don`t believe that for a second..the place is a mess..


i`ll tell you what...we have an immigration problem in this country...but it`s a bug on the windshield compared to what`s going on in europe....give europe another 5 or 10 years and the enormous unflux of muslims will become an enormous problem....not only for them...but for the u.s....


see below..........................................

"In Germany, which has welcomed "guest workers" from the Middle East for decades, there are now some 3 million Muslims, most of them Turkish, and Berlin is the third largest Turkish city in the world. This may be the reason that Germany served as what the New York Times calls "the haven of choice" for the terrorists who plotted and carried out the Sept. 11 attacks in New York and Washington. Just as the hijackers could mask their presence and plans in the United States because of the alternative social structures that mass immigration has created, so in Germany Muslim immigration served the same purpose.

"There are many reasons," the Times reports, for the terrorist preference for Germany, "among them the fact that the terrorists could blend into a society with a large Muslim population and more foreigners than any other in Europe." But Germany is by no means alone in providing such havens. [NYT October 5th, 2001, A NATION CHALLENGED: AN ASSESSMENT; In Germany, Terrorists Made Use of a Passion: An Open Democracy]

In France, where for years Jean-Marie LePen's Front Nationale has warned against the dangers of mass immigration and where some 5 million Muslims now live, the enemy is within the gates. "Bin Laden for President!" shout Arab sympathizers of the mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks, as Agence France Presse reported last week. "Maybe I don't approve of what he did in New York, but when I saw him talking on television I thought, 'What a great guy!'" says one, a 19-year-old computer technician.

He and his friends have little use for strict Muslim fundamentalism but they seem to share Osama bin Laden's political agenda. As the news story reported, "They are in many ways integrated into French society?their manners, clothes, habits of speech clearly place them in France?but are fired by a fierce rush of Arab and Islamic pride." Once again, the fallacy of assuming that external assimilation is more than skin deep becomes clear.

In Holland also, the Arabic and Muslim population offers critical support for the bin Laden network as well as for several other Middle Eastern terrorist groups. In fact, Muslim immigrants have invented what reporter Adriana Stuijt calls "a new form of terrorism against the civilian population at large." "'Muslim cultural organizations' have turned the streets of Antwerp and Rotterdam into main battle grounds for Muslim-fundamentalist male criminal youth gangs who deliberately attack, rob and invade ethno-European cultural events and throngs of shoppers in the large shopping districts." As the white European birth rate falls while that of Third World immigrants to Europe rises, the Muslims know very well whose continent Europe will soon become. It's the Europeans who don't have a clue.

In Rotterdam, she reports, "These gangs target major shopping districts and traditional European cultural and sporting events to rob, terrorize and abuse especially the ethno-Dutch population. During these organized attacks, the youths are also seen to deliberately target ethno-European girls and women, demanding that they start obeying the strict Muslim shari'a laws favored by terrorist regimes in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya." In Belgium last summer, gangs of Algerian and Moroccan youths attacked Flemish citizens holding an annual fair. In Britain Muslims and Middle Eastern immigrants rioted in several northern cities.

Not only is the immigrant presence a challenge to European cultural values and institutions (not to mention simple law and order) but also it provides a crucial support network for international terrorism. In Germany, Britain, the Netherlands, and France, some 20 suspects have actually been arrested or detained for alleged connections with the Sept. 11 attack, and the New York Times reports "it has become increasingly clear that there are a number of cells throughout Europe like the one in Germany that investigators believe played a central role in planning the Sept. 11 attacks.".............................

Even when immigrants are not openly sympathetic to terrorism against the countries that took them in, they provide a vast underground in which real terrorists and their supporters can live, operate, and conceal themselves and their activities. And, as the immigrants gain the vote, they constitute a massive political lobby that will be able to influence European policy toward terrorism, the Middle East and U.S. action there.


israel is a pimple on an elephant`s ass compared to the future problems europe is staring at....and indirectly,europe`s problems will be our problems.....
 
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Nolan Dalla

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***GARDENWEASEL makes several points. I shall respond:


nobody said that arafat was a thief....just a fanatic....

***All successful revolutionaries are "fanatics." George Washington, Jesus Christ, Moses, Martin Luther, et. al. were all FANATICS in pursuit of a (just) cause. They shared a single-minded objective of social and political change against overwhelming odds. I certainly don't place Yassir Arafat in the same moral league as those icons, but I suspect his fantaticism is just as strong. It takes fantaticism to win.



and to say that israel alone is the cause for all muslim terrorism is absurd...and to intimate that the extinction of israel will solve the problems in the middle east and for muslim extremism in general is even more ridiculous...

***Isreal is the cause for 90 percent of all Muslim terrorism -- perhaps more. I can't think of any Muslim acts of terrorism apart from the Isreali-Palestinian conflict....can you? (Note: Perhaps the Kurds in Turkey (PKK) or the extremeists in Indonesia, but most Muslim terrorism results from hostility towards Israel.)


and if this is the best that the muslim world can do to help a tiny nation like palestine,then shame on them...i don`t believe that for a second..the place is a mess..

***Sure the place is a mess. Roads and transportation lines are cut off by walls, barricades and the Israeli Army. Cut off the state of Arizona from supplies for twenty years and see what the place ends up looking like. Then, bomb the cities, have tanks bulldoze all the community centers and state government, and see what Arizona would resemble. Try the West Bank and Gaza.


i`ll tell you what...we have an immigration problem in this country...but it`s a bug on the windshield compared to what`s going on in europe....give europe another 5 or 10 years and the enormous unflux of muslims will become an enormous problem....not only for them...but for the u.s....

***Here's where I agree with you.


see below..........................................

"In Germany, which has welcomed "guest workers" from the Middle East for decades, there are now some 3 million Muslims, most of them Turkish, and Berlin is the third largest Turkish city in the world. This may be the reason that Germany served as what the New York Times calls "the haven of choice" for the terrorists who plotted and carried out the Sept. 11 attacks in New York and Washington. Just as the hijackers could mask their presence and plans in the United States because of the alternative social structures that mass immigration has created, so in Germany Muslim immigration served the same purpose.

***I don't agree with blaming the Turks here. They (the so called "Gasterbeiten" or guest workers) have been welcome in Germany for 30 years. The system with the guest workers from Turkey is pretty successful. Also, Turks badly want to assimilate with Europe and do not fancy being linked with Arabs or the Middle East (many of the Turks I worked with were almost violent on this point). Most Turks consider themselves Europeans. I know this was not your point, but I do want to make the fact known that Turks do not accept nor work with Al Quida or terrorist cells.


In France, where for years Jean-Marie LePen's Front Nationale has warned against the dangers of mass immigration and where some 5 million Muslims now live, the enemy is within the gates. "Bin Laden for President!" shout Arab sympathizers of the mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks, as Agence France Presse reported last week. "Maybe I don't approve of what he did in New York, but when I saw him talking on television I thought, 'What a great guy!'" says one, a 19-year-old computer technician.

***Interesting problem in France is -- they have NEGATIVE population growth. I mean, the country is losing population. A small number, but that's still a significant factor. Foreigns are coming in largely as a economic necessity (this is the justification anyway) to boost depressed areas and provide cheap labor.


He and his friends have little use for strict Muslim fundamentalism but they seem to share Osama bin Laden's political agenda. As the news story reported, "They are in many ways integrated into French society?their manners, clothes, habits of speech clearly place them in France?but are fired by a fierce rush of Arab and Islamic pride." Once again, the fallacy of assuming that external assimilation is more than skin deep becomes clear.

***Again, I agree that the NON ASSIMILIATION issue with many new immigrants is a huge problem. In this country, it's going to end up being a disaster, and perhaps it will be worse in Europe, if these reports are to be believed.


israel is a pimple on an elephant`s ass compared to the future problems europe is staring at....and indirectly,europe`s problems will be our problems.....

***Again -- we agree.


-- Nolan Dalla
 

djv

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Problem. Wait till Spain and France have ago at each other.
 

HONUS

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Good for you to support the Palestinian cause. It helps to have a discussion that reveals both sides of the argument. Personally, I used to be on the fence. When I saw the Palestinians dancing in the streets after 9/11, I got off the fence.

Please don?t put Arafat in that same list of yours of other so called fanatics; it?s insulting.

I think most Americans can see the moral differences in the present struggle.

If the Palestinians wish to hold periodic and open elections, establish an independent judiciary, create a free press, arrest murderers, subject their treasury to public scrutiny, eschew suicide murdering, censure religious leaders who call for mass murder, embrace non-violent dissidents, extend equal rights to women, end honor killings, raise funds in the Arab world earmarked only to build water, sewer, transportation, and education infrastructure, and pledge that any Jews who choose to live in the West Bank will enjoy the same rights as Arabs in the Israel, then they might find Americans equally divided over questions of land and peace.

But all that is a lot of ifs. And so for the present, Palestinian sympathizers (such as yourself) shouldn?t be too surprised that Americans (such as myself) find very little in their society that has much appeal to either our values or sympathy.

Finally, if, as you claim, terrorism is a direct result of the presence of Israel, then by extension, only the elimination of Israel will eliminate terrorism. You may be right. That?s a scary thought.
 

gardenweasel

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as always i respect your point of view...but wasn`t that terrorism on the spanish rail lines just a week ago?....didn`t al qaida claim responsibility?.....

here`s another...there are more..........i don`t want to ramble any more than i already have(lol)....

Jakarta, Feb. 04 (AsiaNews) -" A new Muslim extremist group has formed in Indonesia, and has already carried out attacks on Christians, the AsiaNews service reports.

The new group, which is believed to have links with al Qaida, is based in the province of Sulawesi, which has been the scene of a series of assaults on christian villages. The group-- whose members have been trained in the philippines and afghanistan-- is aggressively recruiting new members, and has been implicated in attacks on christians in the molluccas islands. "........................

manila......northern nigeria.....pakistan.... indonesia........

christians are as much targets as jews....

they are even a danger to other muslims who are treated as not being sufficiently orthodox for the extremists. ....

islamic extremism has grown into a serious danger around the world - wherever Islam and other religions meet, muslims extremists are likely there, causing trouble.

actually,this "wahhabism" basically declares war or jihad on "western civilization"......last time i looked,that`s us....kind of like "the crusades" in reverse....

hopefully,the rest of the world is now coming to their senses...attacks on the u.s. are considered passe in europe...no big deal....but,this attack on spain may stir the pot...finally be the impetus needed to get europe`s heads out of their collective asses..get their heads out of the sand....finally...

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Terrorism is an absolute evil and before it there can only be one response: absolute determination, without doubts or hesitation.

Portuguese Prime Minister Jose Manuel Durao Barroso




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Once again we see senseless killing of innocent people. Killing of innocent people cannot be justified regardless of the cause. I offer my deepest sympathy. I hope that the perpetrators will be brought to justice swiftly.

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan



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We stand strongly with the people of Spain. I appreciate so very much the Spanish government's fight against terror, their resolute stand against terrorist organisations like Eta. And the United States stands with them. And today we ask God's blessings on those who suffer in the great country of Spain.


US President George W Bush



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The attacks provide further proof of the multiple and diverse sources of terrorism as a global menace, which may strike anywhere and at any time, and the need for all nations to cooperate to defeat it.

Indonesian Foreign Minister Hassan Wirayuda



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Once more, this incident marks the ferocity and randomness by which terrorism strikes. We must and shall never let our guard down especially at a time when democracy is undergoing tests in various places of the world.

Philippine President Gloria Arroyo



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We're absolutely appalled and obviously our hearts go out to the people of Spain at this dreadful time.
It does remind us though that the risk of terrorism is really still there and there's a long way to go in the war against terrorism and we just can't afford to be complacent, any of us.


Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer



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I'm here to express our deep grief at this bloody, ferocious and senseless attack.

There is no justification whatsoever behind which the authors of this bestial crime can hide.

This is violence without object, without sense against which the entire international community has to mobilise itself. All the peoples of Europe are now close to Spain.


European Commission President Romano Prodi



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It is an outrageous, unjustified and unjustifiable attack on the Spanish people and Spanish democracy.

There is a general election due in Spain on Sunday. What happened today is a declaration of war on democracy. Let Sunday show that Spanish democracy is determined to overcome terrorism.


European Parliament President Pat Cox



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The timing of the bombings was clearly designed to wreak the greatest level of havoc... and cannot be justified by any political cause.


Irish Prime Minister Bertie Ahern, whose country holds the EU presidency



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These irresponsible acts, which can have no justification, are from every standpoint to be condemned.


French President Jacques Chirac



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This terrible attack underlines the threat that we all continue to face from terrorism in many countries and why we must all work together internationally to safeguard our peoples against such attacks and defeat terrorism.


UK Prime Minister Tony Blair



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These abominable terror acts that claimed so many lives fill us with deep sadness and outrage.


German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer



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Today we stand together with all people of Europe in sorrow, but also with resolve to stop these crimes against humanity. There is no cause that can justify terrorism.


US Ambassador to the EU Rockwell Schnabel, on behalf of President Bush



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This senseless, barbaric action has again shown that the world community must even more resolutely combat terrorism.

Today, as never before, the entire civilised world must unite in the fight against this evil.


Russian President Vladimir Putin



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The Holy Father [Pope John Paul II] reiterates his firm and absolute disapproval of such actions that offend God, violate the fundamental right to life and undermine peaceful co-existence.


The Vatican



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Terrorism is the third world war and the nations of the free world should unite against it. What happened in Madrid proves it once again.


Raanan Gissin, spokesman for Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon



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We strongly condemn these attacks targeting innocent civilians in Madrid.


Palestinian minister Saeb Erekat



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Terrorists must know that with attacks such as the monstrous and unconscionable bombings in Madrid today they will not succeed in destroying the edifice of international law and human rights the international community has been building for so many years.


Acting UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Bertrand Ramcharan



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On behalf of the alliance, I condemn in the strongest possible terms this mindless act of cruelty and barbarism.


Nato Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer



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We felt profound pain on learning of the criminal acts carried out at train stations in Madrid.


Syrian President Bashar al-Assad
..........................................................................................

hopefully,all these comments will prove to be more than political lip service...


as far as the elimination of israel is concerned,i`m afraid you`ll probably prove to be a prophet...it`s only a matter of time before these monsters get their hands on some sort of weapon of mass destruction...lord knows,the france`s of the world have done more than their share to create world instability....

these fanatics will be more than glad to try and create a global catastrophe.....

in a strange way,and please don`t take this out of context,9/11 may well have been the kick in the nuts that will save this country from heading down the irreversible path that europe seems be be heading down...

nolan....thanks for the civil discourse....always a pleasure discussing any issue with you...
 
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Chanman

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Nolan Dalla said:
i`ll tell you what...we have an immigration problem in this country...but it`s a bug on the windshield compared to what`s going on in europe....give europe another 5 or 10 years and the enormous unflux of muslims will become an enormous problem....not only for them...but for the u.s....

"In Germany, which has welcomed "guest workers" from the Middle East for decades, there are now some 3 million Muslims, most of them Turkish, and Berlin is the third largest Turkish city in the world. This may be the reason that Germany served as what the New York Times calls "the haven of choice" for the terrorists who plotted and carried out the Sept. 11 attacks in New York and Washington. Just as the hijackers could mask their presence and plans in the United States because of the alternative social structures that mass immigration has created, so in Germany Muslim immigration served the same purpose.

***Again, I agree that the NON ASSIMILIATION issue with many new immigrants is a huge problem. In this country, it's going to end up being a disaster, and perhaps it will be worse in Europe, if these reports are to be believed.
-- Nolan Dalla [/B]

Along that line here are a few interesting articles:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3595547.stm

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/20040327-0949-closingborders.html
 

Nolan Dalla

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HONUS and GARDENWEASEL have posted some very thoughtful and articulate positions in reply to my points. I appreciate the dialogue and the work that went into the posts -- especially GARDENWEASEL's points about the rise of Islamic extremism.

I'm going to take a pass on respoonding in detail, because I think my points are pretty much already known on this issue. I respect those, like HONUS and GARDENWEASEL to have differing views than my own -- and I know very well that they (and others) could make a valid argument in defense of military engagement and current US Middle Eastern policy.

I doubt if my arguments in favor of Palestinian rights and sovereignty will shake them from their core beliefs, and I know very well my position on the issue is clear and definite (and inflexible). So, I'm prepared to call this chess match a "draw."

Thanks for the exchange,


Nolan Dalla
 

djv

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Nolan It's much like Iraq. There are those with there core beliefs.
And our country is now split 50/50 on why Iraq. I new as info leaked out about Iraq to why we were there. Or why we should not be there. That would happen. I remember the the 70/30 polls a year ago in support. Now as the killing contiunes the support swings away. Irag has a good chance at being a mess for at least 5 to 10 years. Not even close to Israel/Palestinian conflict. But the history tells us we have a way of getting in middle of a problem. Or even help to start it and can not learn our lessons not to.
 
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