Source says Minnesota Twins leading race to acquire pitcher Cliff Lee

[Chadman]

I think Ramos is pretty well thought of offensively, defensively he needs some work. Very few catching prospects that I know of rated offensively as highly as Ramos, from what I've heard. Twins starters are solid, but similar. Just don't know if Liriano will be more than a #2 or #3 consistently. All of the pitchers seem to throw TOO many good strikes, and none of them have an out pitch. They can all be good, and bad. All in all, a good bunch of pitchers, but Lee would give them a legit #1 starter which would help the whole staff. I think they probably would look at trading Blackburn, who has struggled lately, and is signed to a 4 year $14 million deal at the moment.

They have a couple of fairly good starters in the minors, and Duensing could step right in, too. Ramos is blocked by Mauer, and is expendable. Not saying those two are worthy of the trade, but I'll bet they would do it, and it's probably worth it for Seattle.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

I think Ramos is pretty well thought of offensively, defensively he needs some work. Very few catching prospects that I know of rated offensively as highly as Ramos, from what I've heard. Twins starters are solid, but similar. Just don't know if Liriano will be more than a #2 or #3 consistently. All of the pitchers seem to throw TOO many good strikes, and none of them have an out pitch. They can all be good, and bad. All in all, a good bunch of pitchers, but Lee would give them a legit #1 starter which would help the whole staff. I think they probably would look at trading Blackburn, who has struggled lately, and is signed to a 4 year $14 million deal at the moment.

They have a couple of fairly good starters in the minors, and Duensing could step right in, too. Ramos is blocked by Mauer, and is expendable. Not saying those two are worthy of the trade, but I'll bet they would do it, and it's probably worth it for Seattle.

Which two guys are you talking about? If you mean Ramos and Blackburn, I hope to God the M's don't do that deal. There are few pitchers in the majors I would want less than Blackburn. Brian Bergesen of the Orioles or Jeff Suppan of the Cards come to mind, but I can't think of too many others.

However, if it ended up being a bigger deal like Lee + a guy or two that the M's would desperately like to unload, I guess it's possible. But I would be very surprised if the M's accepted a deal that had Blackburn as a part of it. We already have a slew of BOR-type guys (Fister, Vargas, Rowland-Smith), so I don't think picking up Blackburn would make much sense.

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

Which two guys are you talking about? If you mean Ramos and Blackburn, I hope to God the M's don't do that deal. There are few pitchers in the majors I would want less than Blackburn. Brian Bergesen of the Orioles or Jeff Suppan of the Cards come to mind, but I can't think of too many others.

However, if it ended up being a bigger deal like Lee + a guy or two that the M's would desperately like to unload, I guess it's possible. But I would be very surprised if the M's accepted a deal that had Blackburn as a part of it. We already have a slew of BOR-type guys (Fister, Vargas, Rowland-Smith), so I don't think picking up Blackburn would make much sense.

I wouldn't sweat it. Jack is not an idiot. He is not taking garbage like Blackburn, who has a lot of money he is owed, and Ramos. Ramos does not have a high ceiling. Twins are going to have to pay up if they want Lee. I'd rather have the two picks over Ramos and Blackburn.

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

Jesus. Blackburn has 33K in 90+ innings and led the AL in hits allowed last year. No thanks.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

Jesus. Blackburn has 33K in 90+ innings and led the AL in hits allowed last year. No thanks.

Yeah, he's REALLY bad. That's why I said there are very few pitchers in baseball I would want less than Blackburn. He is the Twins version of Carlos Silva. Well, that is the Carlos Silva who was arguably the worst pitcher in baseball when he was with the M's, not the guy who is passing as a legit starter this year.

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

Yeah, he's REALLY bad. That's why I said there are very few pitchers in baseball I would want less than Blackburn. He is the Twins version of Carlos Silva. Well, that is the Carlos Silva who was arguably the worst pitcher in baseball when he was with the M's, not the guy who is passing as a legit starter this year.

Yeah, Blackburn can't miss a bat to save his life. Thats the kind of player you give away. Not include him in a deal and act like he is an asset for Lee.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

Again, I don't know how much of this is even remotely true, but this link says the Ramos/Hicks deal is just speculation, and that the Twins offered Ramos and Slowey (not nearly as good a package, IMO).

I doubt the M's do anything with the Rays, but if Upton comes to Seattle I think I will puke.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/cliff_lee/

 

[Chadman]

I think you guys are being a little harsh on Blackburn, but the stats (AT THE MOMENT) back up your comments. He should not have been left in the last game, but Gardy had used the bullpen too much in the previous few games. He is a better pitcher, with a good mindset, than he's been pitching. He was given his contract to start the year, because he was considered solid, and has pitched much better than his early season thus far. That being said, I understand not wanting him in this scenario.

Not sure what you think a half-year player is worth on a team that is going nowhere, but you have a right to expect teams to offer something. I don't think the Twins will give Slowey and Ramos for Lee, but maybe they will. I don't think Lee is worth two good players, being unsigned moving forward, but Ramos and either of those two pitchers SHOULD be worth it for Seattle. They may get more, and the Twins may have to give up more. I hope they do.

My point is, I think Blackburn is a better pitcher than he is getting credit for in this thread. If anything, he's been throwing too many strikes, and he needs to get some breaks. He was terrific early on this past Sunday, and was good the past couple of starts.

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

I think you guys are being a little harsh on Blackburn, but the stats (AT THE MOMENT) back up your comments. He should not have been left in the last game, but Gardy had used the bullpen too much in the previous few games. He is a better pitcher, with a good mindset, than he's been pitching. He was given his contract to start the year, because he was considered solid, and has pitched much better than his early season thus far. That being said, I understand not wanting him in this scenario.

Not sure what you think a half-year player is worth on a team that is going nowhere, but you have a right to expect teams to offer something. I don't think the Twins will give Slowey and Ramos for Lee, but maybe they will. I don't think Lee is worth two good players, being unsigned moving forward, but Ramos and either of those two pitchers SHOULD be worth it for Seattle. They may get more, and the Twins may have to give up more. I hope they do.

My point is, I think Blackburn is a better pitcher than he is getting credit for in this thread. If anything, he's been throwing too many strikes, and he needs to get some breaks. He was terrific early on this past Sunday, and was good the past couple of starts.

Do you realize Lee is a Type A free agent? Whomever gets him would get two compensation picks if they do not sign him.

I think you are way overvaluing Blackburn. Thats okay though. Its nice to be a fan but if the Twins want Lee, they will be paying.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

I think you guys are being a little harsh on Blackburn, but the stats (AT THE MOMENT) back up your comments. He should not have been left in the last game, but Gardy had used the bullpen too much in the previous few games. He is a better pitcher, with a good mindset, than he's been pitching. He was given his contract to start the year, because he was considered solid, and has pitched much better than his early season thus far. That being said, I understand not wanting him in this scenario.

Not sure what you think a half-year player is worth on a team that is going nowhere, but you have a right to expect teams to offer something. I don't think the Twins will give Slowey and Ramos for Lee, but maybe they will. I don't think Lee is worth two good players, being unsigned moving forward, but Ramos and either of those two pitchers SHOULD be worth it for Seattle. They may get more, and the Twins may have to give up more. I hope they do.

My point is, I think Blackburn is a better pitcher than he is getting credit for in this thread. If anything, he's been throwing too many strikes, and he needs to get some breaks. He was terrific early on this past Sunday, and was good the past couple of starts.

You're probably right about Blackburn. You're a Twins fan and I'm not, so I'm sure you know the guy better than I do. All I know is when I have seen him pitch, I haven't been real impressed. And then when you combine that with his stats, he just isn't a guy I want. The last thing the M's need is another "potential" guy or a reclamation project. Jack Z has tried that with a few players and, for the most part, has been burned by those guys.

As for the M's, how they are doing as a team is irrelevant to Lee's trade value. All that matters is what teams are willing to give up, and if they are in a tight race I would think that would give the M's some leverage. And as TU already mentioned, you wouldn't just be getting Lee. If Lee walked at the end of your season you would get two draft picks in return. So the WORST case scenario for the Twins would be that you get Cliff Lee for a half season and two draft picks. IMO, that should be worth a lot.

I doubt the M's are interested in Slowey. As I said in an earlier post, we already have our share of average to slightly-above average SPs (Fister, Vargas, RRS), and next year Pineda should be in the rotation. I think they will be focusing on offense in any trade for Lee.

It sounds like the Twins are still the frontrunner but I am also seeing people say they are nowhere near a deal, and some people are even saying there haven't been any offers put forth by either team. Should be interesting...

 

[Chadman]

I think you guys are probably on the right track - Blackburn's value is pretty low at the moment, and there's no doubt that a pitcher of Lee's stature is worth plenty. Is either of these two pitchers (I doubt Slowey is on the block, but perhaps) worth it along with a top hitting catching prospect? I guess we'll see. The Twins have quite a few good young players in the minors, including a couple of possible closer-types that they are considering bringing up, so they have the ammo to make a deal. I would think the Red Sox will be active, with all the injuries, and there's no doubt other teams will get in the mix.

Just seems to me that a young pitcher with playoff experience and a very good hitting catching prospect would be close to good value. Just depends on how things go - I would think Lee would be worth plenty, as would Oswalt.

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

I think you guys are probably on the right track - Blackburn's value is pretty low at the moment, and there's no doubt that a pitcher of Lee's stature is worth plenty. Is either of these two pitchers (I doubt Slowey is on the block, but perhaps) worth it along with a top hitting catching prospect? I guess we'll see. The Twins have quite a few good young players in the minors, including a couple of possible closer-types that they are considering bringing up, so they have the ammo to make a deal. I would think the Red Sox will be active, with all the injuries, and there's no doubt other teams will get in the mix.

Just seems to me that a young pitcher with playoff experience and a very good hitting catching prospect would be close to good value. Just depends on how things go - I would think Lee would be worth plenty, as would Oswalt.

We'll see what happens. We are never going to agree as we are fans of opposite sides in this deal. However, there is no doubt Blackburn has no value with his contract (not an asset). Ramos is debate-able. No one sees him as an elite prospect but Top 50 perhaps. He has had a rough year though. There is just no way Lee gets dealt with Ramos as the top prospect. The M's would be better off keeping Lee and taking the draft picks.

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

Another thing to add is that closer prospects are worth zero. Trust me I feel for you. The M's specialized in drafting closers with Bavasi in charge. A good closer is not worth half of what an average starter is.

Personally, I really hope Texas is involved as much as the chatter suggests. If the M's can steal talent from a division rival that is stacked in the minors, that would be great. Especially with Smoak's name being mentioned. That would be a very nice piece.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

I think you guys are probably on the right track - Blackburn's value is pretty low at the moment, and there's no doubt that a pitcher of Lee's stature is worth plenty. Is either of these two pitchers (I doubt Slowey is on the block, but perhaps) worth it along with a top hitting catching prospect? I guess we'll see. The Twins have quite a few good young players in the minors, including a couple of possible closer-types that they are considering bringing up, so they have the ammo to make a deal. I would think the Red Sox will be active, with all the injuries, and there's no doubt other teams will get in the mix.

Just seems to me that a young pitcher with playoff experience and a very good hitting catching prospect would be close to good value. Just depends on how things go - I would think Lee would be worth plenty, as would Oswalt.

I would agree that a package of Ramos/Slowey isn't a bad offer, I just don't think Slowey, or any other pitchers in his mold, are what the M's are looking for. I also think the M's are looking for more than that, which may or may not be realistic. I have no idea about that. But with Slowey, I believe he is, and correct me if I'm wrong, something like a #3 starter. The M's just don't need a lot of help there. What they desperately need is offense.

Something tells me this is going to drag out for a long time. I think the rumor mill will churn for a few weeks before we have any kind of definitive answer.

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

I would agree that a package of Ramos/Slowey isn't a bad offer, I just don't think Slowey, or any other pitchers in his mold, are what the M's are looking for. I also think the M's are looking for more than that, which may or may not be realistic. I have no idea about that. But with Slowey, I believe he is, and correct me if I'm wrong, something like a #3 starter. The M's just don't need a lot of help there. What they desperately need is offense.

Something tells me this is going to drag out for a long time. I think the rumor mill will churn for a few weeks before we have any kind of definitive answer.

The thing is that it is not a good offer at all. Slowey is barely replacement level and he is going to get more expensive and Ramos is a B level prospect. Its what I would offer if I was the Twins to start with but its no where near what the M's will accept for Lee. If they include Hicks in a deal, then we can talk about it being a fair offer.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

The thing is that it is not a good offer at all. Slowey is barely replacement level and he is going to get more expensive and Ramos is a B level prospect. Its what I would offer if I was the Twins to start with but its no where near what the M's will accept for Lee. If they include Hicks in a deal, then we can talk about it being a fair offer.

I agree the M's won't take that, but I don't think it's a horrible offer. I'm not saying I would do it, but I don't think it's an offer that would get you hung up on. I'm sure we'll get a better offer than that, but I can understand the Twins offering that.

If we are to believe the "experts," it sounds like the Twins aren't willing to do Ramos and Hicks. It also sounds like Texas isn't willing to give up Smoak, but I guess that could change. They definitely have a shit-ton of prospects.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

In case anyone is still interested, it sounds like the Yanks and M's are very close to a deal. I may just pee my pants if/when we get Montero:

http://prospectinsider.com/

 

[bleedingpurple]

KFAN in Minneapolis is reporting that the Twins are out.. Not going to give up Hicks.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

KFAN in Minneapolis is reporting that the Twins are out.. Not going to give up Hicks.

Yeah, I think that was a sticking point in that deal. I've checked a few different sites and it sounds like the deal with the Yanks is pretty much done, they just have to finalize it.

The Twins not budging on Hicks may end up being a wise decision for them, long-term.

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

I don't blame them for not wanting to trade Hicks but Ramos and either of those starters was a shit offer. Hicks could be the best player in baseball one day. Ramos could be an everyday starter. Big difference.