Your pet or a stranger?

phoenix566

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To look at the flip side of believeing if human has a 'soul', you are also assuming the pet does not have one. Using the definition handed down by religion, pets do not have 'souls'. Perhaps humans simply can not comprehend the 'soul' of an animal.

Your question, Nick, was a family pet or complete stranger. I am sure the answer would be different if a complete stranger or an unknown adorable animal.

Should not a 'bond' come first? What about the man who falls in love with a girl who has serious mental defects and can not comprehend anything and in essence 'acts like a dog', but yet loves back. Sure the body is 'human' but what is the difference in 'soul' between her and the dog?

I wasn't going to reply in this thread, but felt I must after reading that you would go so far as to say 'human' is the only right answer. There is NO RIGHT answer here. Every answer is right based on your own personal beliefs and convictions.

All that being said, I'm saving Mugsy!
 

Nick Douglas

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Hoops,

I never said that saving the stranger was the knee jerk, emotional reaction, only the right moral one. As I said, I understand why people would save a pet, as there is an emotional attachment there but no emotional attachment to a stranger. I just feel it is wrong if given the choice between human and animal.

You are also absolutely right that *misguided* faith has led to more wars, slavery, oppression, etc. than any other force in human history. Of this there is no doubt. But I would argue that properly focused faith is also the way to true happiness and enlightenment.

I also disagree that "nothing good comes of criticizing others' beliefs." That is a rediculous statement and you know it. There is no progress without struggle. Part of that is questioning personal or societal conventions that we feel are unjust or immoral. I can point to hundreds of historical examples of positive progress coming from criticizing widely held, yet misguided beliefs.
 

Nick Douglas

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phoenix,

I guess your analogy to the retarded girl all revolves around your leap of faith vs. logic. If you take that leap of faith to believe that humans have souls and animals do not, then no matter how mentally inept a human is, their life would be valued over that of an animal. If you have not taken a leap of faith to believe that, then your decision is simply emotional attachment vs. loyalty to your species. Like I said before, I understand why people would make that decision, but it is still the wrong decision.
 

JT

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I would save the human. Then of course
the pet would be a reincarnation of a
human who in his prior life choose to
save his pet. Oh the irony!
eek.gif
 

Hoops

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Nick,

No, criticizing others such as you have...waiting for some responses then chiming in with an "all-knowing" attitude which was overly pompous and arrogant in regards to those with opposing viewpoints..using words such as "deplorable" and "shallow" to describe others, not to mention stating there is only one "right" answer to a very grey area...well, excuse me if I don't find that type of criticism beneficial.

I have no problem with people debating issues and without others offering different viewpoints and insights, forums would be of no use. And people usually take that the wrong way. But your method of doing so leaves much to be desired. Much like the other thread involving the discussion in regards to "Maxim".

Threads like this, which involve personal beliefs and issues can last forever. You are not going to change anyone's beliefs or "enlighten" them. Neither am I. You belive what you want, I believe what I want. But don't tell me I'm wrong and you are right. Then there is a problem. After the intial, yes and no's that responded, there was no need to try and "shoot down" the posters who would save their pet. It was self-serving and of no use.

I lied and said I wouldn't respond again to this thread, sorry about that, but this is my final say on this matter.
 

Subagoto

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Nick, I respect your capping, but I think in the 1st paragraph of above post Hoops has captured the feelings I had in reading your initial response. Valid or not, whether that was your intent or not, that is the way it came across to me.
 

AR182

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I would save my dog,Gina,over a complete stranger,who I have no attachment to.My family would'nt have it any other way.
 

phoenix566

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Nick, for you to maintain that I am making the wrong decision on this, for WHATEVER reason, is wrong. Based on YOUR beliefs you may THINK I am wrong. Based on your comments, I have lost some respect for you.
 

Nick Douglas

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Hoops,

I never said people who would choose their pet are deplorable, only that the action of choosing a pet's life over a human's is morally deplorable. When I used the word shallow it was in reference to the love that a person receives from an animal and as long as someone maintains rationality, there is simply no doubt that animal love is more shallow than human love (I just re-read that and it could make for some great punch lines, but you know what I mean).

You have a good point that the way I went about bringing up this topic was somewhat underhanded. The reason I did it was that I wanted honest responses, untainted by my views on the morality of the decision, not because I had a desire to give some kind of all knowing decree to those who responded.

Hoops, I like you and you are a great handicapper and from the time I have talked with you on AIM you seem like a great guy. I just hate to see you write stuff like, "don't tell me you are right and I am wrong." Everyone has certain beliefs and those beliefs are not set in stone. It is not like I am arguing something ludicrous, like that murder is a moral pursuit, rather I am just pointing out why human life should be valued over animal life because of my reaction to an editorial I read. I am sure I am wrong about a lot of things in life (though I don't think this is one of them) and if someone presents a rational viewpoint about something, I would rather listen and re-consider than simply close my mind and tell them to keep their thoughts to themselves. Having moral convictions by its very nature makes a person believe that certain things are right and wrong without any grey area. If they did not believe an opposing viewpoint was wrong, those convictions would instead be simply hypothesis'.
 

redsfann

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Easy choice-- the Pet..
Nick--

By whose "Morals" are we talking about here? From your responses I gather everything revolves around yours-- morals, I mean. My "morals" obviously don't stack up to yours, because in this situation I wouldn't even think twice about choosing the pet. Hell, I'd save the animal even if it wasn't my pet.
And to insinuate that somehow I am less human because I'd save an animals life over that of a human is a bit arrogant on your part, don't you think?


[This message has been edited by redsfann (edited 07-31-2001).]
 

NJO

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This is an interesting discussion -- a reaction to something Nick D posted:

"there is simply no doubt that animal love is more shallow than human love"

I don't know if I agree with that comment, simply because an animal's love for its owner is undying and unconditional, and that is far deeper than the love many humans profess for one another.

In thinking about that, I can't wholeheartedly agree with Nick's sentiment here -- I know where he is coming from, but it seems somewhat off-base.
 

katts

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Nick, with all due respect, this is a narrow-minded attitude you have here. You're so convinced about your point of view that you totally disregard any other opinions. Because it IS a point of view, not a fact.

To quote a phrase, "Everybody's got opinions, but NOBODY's got the answers".

As far as I'm concerned, you're nothing else but a LIVING human being, for now at least. There are some things out there way too much intricate for any of us to clearly comprehend, so I'm certainly not gonna let someone of my own species teach me what I know they can't fully understand themselves.

As for the "soul" thing, well believe it or not, I do believe we have one, but I don't think it has anything to do with saving a life. As far as I'm concerned, if you save someone's life, you save his/her life, not his/her soul, the human life (legs, arms, heart, brain...) and its soul being 2 complete different things. If I choose to save the stranger's life over my pet's life, I do it because I deeply believe it's the right thing to do as 2 members of the same species, moreover a species that obviously emerges from the other ones on this Earth. I don't do it to save his soul, as I know I can't do that. But then again, it's just an opinion.

That being said, I still have a lot of respect for you Nick. If not more than before as you're showing your true colors here - that is not a reproach, on the contrary. You have your opinions and I respect them. I'm not trying to say "I'm right and you're wrong", just trying to make you realize that you *might* be wrong (so am I).
 

SixFive

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Ahh, I think I need to come to the defense of my buddy a little although he would probably tell me not to do so. I tried to stay out of this discussion this AM, but now I'll chime in. As much as I love my great big dog and 2 cats, my choice would be an easy one, to save the stranger.

A person is more important than an animal even if they are anonymous. What if the choice was between a stranger and a rat?? How about a squirrel, a pig, a chicken, a goat, a koala bear, a dingo, etc? Is that an easier decision? Shouldn't be...

A pet (namely a dog) is probably the most loyal friend you will ever have. They do become family members, and we do grieve when they die. But when they do die, what happens to them? We bury them six feet under if we are nice, and their body and bones then decay. A pet is an animal. A pet has no soul. There is no where for them to go after they die.

A stranger, on the other hand has a soul. Now, this stranger could be a callous, self serving, immoral individual, or he could be a humble, courteous, upright citizen. In either case, you don't know him. What difference does that make? He has a soul and he is sentient. Therefore, he is the one to save from drowning in my opinion.

I have known of Nick Douglas for around 3 years now, and we have communicated back and forth with email and the msn messenger for quite a while. When he posed that question this morning, and I read it, I had a response written out, but I did not submit it. The reason was, I thought Nick would have saved his pet! I didn't want to "shoot down" my buddy on a public forum, rather I was going to talk to him personally and discuss it there. Anyway, while I agree with Nick on this, we have disagreed on MANY other things in the past, and I think we have had a lot of good discussion. I can't speak for him, but I think that's what he was trying to do here. When you are a person like that who is gifted with words and who likes to think, you want discussion, you want to hear other viewpoints from folks who disagree with you, you want debate, you want to try to understand how and why a person may disagree with you, and you are not afraid to voice your views even if they are not the popular view.

I have left religion and God out of this discussion until this sentence on purpose as I did not want somebody who might be reading it to label me a "Bible-beatin' redneck" and pass over my views. I do agree that there is a huge moral decline in our country. Somebody up above mentioned "whose morals are we talking about," or something on those lines. I would propose that you either HAVE morals or you do NOT have morals. There are not varying degrees of morals or 5,000 different sets of morals. You have them, or you don't. That is another discussion Nick and I have had in the past...


I'll leave you with a few quote's from folks whose views speak for themselves. I think they all apply to this discussion and to the degree of which some folks don't have any regard for human life. The second quote is VERY similar to this discussion topic.

Ingrid Newkirk, the founder of PETA "A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy." (Washingtonian Magazine, Aug, 1986)

"on a radio talk show in Miami, a spokesperson for PeTA was asked a question. If a baby and a dog were in a boat, and the boat capsized, which would she save first? 'I don't know. . .it might depend if it's my baby or my dog, or my baby and someone else's dog. . . ." (FFAWC White Paper)

In Fort Lauderdale, on WFTL, talk show host Pat Hurley asked Don Agony, a spokesperson for the Animal Rights Foundation of Florida [ARFF] the following question, "I am a terrorist. I have a pig under one arm and a baby under the other. I AM going to kill one of them. Which one do I kill?" Don Agony would NOT [or could not for fear of embarrassment] answer the question.

Edit is to add a few quotes.

------------------
It's far better to be LUCKY than good.

[This message has been edited by SixFive (edited 07-31-2001).]
 

Anders

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Gotta agree with a lot that's said above..
(from Hoops, Subagoto, Redsfann eg...)

Nick, respect you as 'capper but after the "disagreement" we had on homosexuality and then this; don't hold much respect on your "values" and the way you espouse them.

I was going to e-mail you back with my views on the homosexuality issue.
But I realised there was little/no point spending some time stating my views to someone coming from a totally different viewpoint.
I'm not a political person as such.
I'm not religious, don't believe in a soul for humans or animals..
As the great Henry Rollins said "I'm a cash and carry kinda guy; wash and wear....you step on a bug, it dies; I shoot you in the back of the head; you die ... there's no afterlife; you don't get to go to Heaven and jam with Miles and Hendrix and do lots of cool shit.."
My "morals" and "values" come simply when I look in the mirror and ask myself - "Am I a good Dad to my two kids; a good Husband to my wife and a good Person to my friends?"
That's as far as it goes.

I have three cats - a 10-y-o, a 9-y-o and a 6-month old. If one of them were drowning and a stranger; who would I save? I don't friggin know - I'd try to get em both. But I don't really know why you care...

Nevercaughtup - spat my drink out thru my nose onto my keyboard at work when I read your reply
biggrin.gif


[This message has been edited by Anders (edited 07-31-2001).]
 

Nick Douglas

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NJO,

What makes animal love so shallow is that it is, in fact, conditional on the material way it is treated. If you came over to my house, walked my dog, fed it and gave it treats, it would love you. That is, it would love you until it found someone else to give it the same food and attention.

Animals simply respond to animal instinct. There is never a moral quandry for an animal, only a response to nature or force. If a dog is in heat, it is going to do everything it can to get laid unless it is forcibly made to do otherwise. It will never make the decision on its own to pass on sex when it is in heat. Therein lies the difference.

The animal's natural instinct is to do whatever gives it instant gratification as long as that does not jeopardize survival. How often have you thought, "Man, my dog has the perfect life. Someone brings it food every day, it is lavished with attention, it goes to the bathroom outside whereever it wants and it can sit around the house all day without doing a lick of work?" For that reason, the animal will love whoever enables it to do those things. I would love to think that my dog gives me unconditional love, but the fact is that as soon as I would move in with rommates, he would love them if they gave him food and affection. There is no deeper bond like humans can have with each other.

katts,

As far as my soul comment, you may have misinterpreted it. It is not that you are saving a person's soul by saving their life, rather a person's life is made more valuable by the animals because it was given a soul.

As far as sifting fact from opinion, I believe that human life having value over an animal's is fact, not opinion. It is evidenced by the human's ability to reason and overcome their animal instincts for their own moral good.

A dog's answer to a similar question, of whether to save its owner or a stange dog, would undoubtedly be to save the owner. The dog has an emotional attachment to the owner. If you don't believe me, how on earth can you possibly explain that a dog barks at other dogs and is often willing to fight them in order to protect a human owner's home? What separates humans from animals is the ability to act morally against our animal instincts.

If you want to test this theory, it is very, very simple. All you have to do is give up morality in favor of your animal instincts for an extended period of time. I don't care what your morality is, give it up. Whatever you feel like doing, just do it. If someone pisses you off, kill them. If you are hungry, eat. If you don't want to go to work, sleep instead. If you want to rape the next hot woman you see, go ahead. You may find these examples extreme but they are EXACTLY what animals do when given the chance. They follow their animal instincts. That is what I mean by humans having a soul that animals lack.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Nick my friend.I don't see where having a soul comes into play but for the sake of argument lets say we agree on that.Then it would indeed be a no brainer.Save the pet.
If the person was a rightous person he would be going to a better place and we would be doing him a favor.If he was a blatant sinner and going to the other place we would be doing society a favor.
I do agree on one of your points and that being that people and their views have changed greatly since the 60's and not for the better.Character,honesty,loyalty and courage are no longer an issue to many.What would have ruined political endeavors 40 years ago now is a shoe-in for another term.
Now getting back to pets.The best qualities you find in a few people are almost retained in all pets unconditionally plus as far as personal safety I would have to worry bout getting stuck by accident by a knife,needle or nose ring and contracting various sorts of of incurable diseases in the rescue.
wink.gif

=============================================
Hell by time I got this typed several issues had been addressed in other post.Would like to add one more thought. I would save a child over any pet.With that being said young children traits and pets traits are very similiar--- till society influence takes hold.

[This message has been edited by DOGS THAT BARK (edited 07-31-2001).]
 

djv

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The problem I have with the stranger (this maybe why the percentage has changed from 1960) I don't trust him/her. The stranger gets the what ever I can throw to it. The pet I get first. The pet in most cases will come easier. The stranger could take me with to the bottom. But as many said above there is no right answer for everyone. And no ones answer should be consider wrong.
This discussion sounds like it belongs in a church.
wink.gif
 

Nick Douglas

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Jim,

I am a bit disappointed that you didn't at least give me the courtesy of a reply to my email. I know my views are very different from the current liberal majority in our society. Knowing that, i know they will be unpopular. Still, I do not shy away from explaining them to people who ask. What I don't like is when I take the time to explain them to someone by request and then they simply discard them without any thought without any explanation.

I am all about acceptance, just not endorsement. If you would save Muffy over Michelle, that is your right. You don't deserve to be punished or anything like that for something so benign. But that doesn't mean that I would endorse that action as morally right.

One last thought. Does anybody else find it incredibly nacissistic to just randomly set their own moral code? The feeling I get is that among a good many people, they honestly feel that 60,000 years of human existence has now peaked with their existence. It is a convenient path of belief to take, as moral code can be added and discarded on a whim. I just wonder to myself how people justify it. I guess that is why I like Radiohead:

(from "Creep")

"Whatever makes you happy
whatever you want
you're so f-cking special
I wish I was special..."
 

Anders

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Nick

Not even going to justify that crap with a reply; it simply justifies my reasons why I didn't reply in the first case.

And no , the name's not Jim ....

I've had enough on this one ...
 

Nick Douglas

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Ian,

Sorry about the name mixup, I am bad with names. It is quite a shame that you can get your blood up over something relatively trivial. Just so you know, though, I don't hold grudges and you are definitely one of the more magnificent handicappers on overseas sports that I have seen on this board.
 
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