a quick poll--need some input

THE KOD

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Don't you think it's a little spurious that the entire "hijackers are still alive" claim derives from one unreliable press report, which came days after 9/11 while the investigation was still going on? Furthermore, if these people were framed (by who?), don't you think they would have come forward 5 years later? Don't you think Mohammed Atta's father would actually have seen his son instead of just making excuses for his murderous behavior? Don't you think these people would be shouting from the rooftops about how they were framed?

Why hasn't a single one of them ever come forward? Not a single one?

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Because they are dead as doorknobs is why.

Doogy Duh
 

THE KOD

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Saturday, September 29, 2007

9/11 Conspiracy: these explosives were planted where, exactly?

One of the fascinating things about the 9/11 "controlled demolition" theories is how much they take for granted. All the conspiracists' fuss about "squibs" and "explosion testimony" focuses on minutiae that glosses over some pretty big assumptions: if the WTC towers were destroyed by explosives, exactly where were these explosives planted, when, and perhaps most importantly, how come nobody noticed them before the disaster?

It's a fair question. Once you sign on to the belief that the towers were destroyed by explosives, you necessarily sign on to an assertion that somebody, somewhere, got inside the towers before 9/11 and planted the explosives there. But that's a pretty big assumption. You're talking about enough explosives to bring down the two largest office buildings in the world. Realistically, how long would this take, and it it even possible that it could have been done surreptitiously?

Destroying a building is no small thing. In real life, i.e., in non-conspiracy-land, controlled demolitions take months of preparation. Support beams must be carefully sawed through and explosives planted in exactly the right places so that the collateral damage to the site is minimal. In Seattle, the King Dome took months to wire before the trigger was pulled, and the same is true of various casinos in Vegas. So you're talking about a job of several months in duration. Exactly when was this supposed to have occurred in the case of the towers, then?

Conspiracists claim that there was a mysterious "power down" in one of the WTC towers, as reported by a witness named Scott Forbes. I could not find any corroboration of this report. Even if it's taken at face value, there's some serious problems with it. First of all, it refers to a loss of power, from the 50th floor up. For starters I find it extremely difficult to believe that one-half of one of the two largest office buildings in the world could be dark for 36 hours. If it happened, it would have made headline news, with all the banking headquarters and other offices in the WTC. If that happened, wouldn't it be a lot easier to find witnesses to corroborate Forbes's claim?

Secondly, what does a "power down" mean? OK, assume 50 floors are dark. Now a bunch of guys are going to come in and plant explosives? With no lights? No elevator power? How are they going to get the explosives on site? We're talking a lot of explosives. You're going to need trucks to get them to the towers, and certainly you need freight elevators to bring them 100 stories up. How are you going to get a freight elevator 50 floors up with no power? What, ropes and pulleys? Wouldn't somebody notice this massive operation? Wouldn't there be one witness? Just one?

Thirdly, what about floors 1-50, and the other tower? There was no report of a "power down" in the other WTC building, or in WTC7 which conspiracists insist was also "pulled." When were these explosives planted? You would need some bombs in the basement, right? (Conspiracists love Willie Rodriguez as one of their own. If you believe his testimony indicates controlled demolition, there had to be explosives in the basement, right?) If you think the "power down" indicates strange goings-on at the high levels, why wouldn't they have "powered down" the lower floors too? Hmm, maybe it's because a 36 hour loss of power in the entire WTC complex might have been noticed by witnesses. No such witnesses have come forward.

Fourth, 36 hours to do all of this: are you kidding me? You'd be lucky to do it in 36 days. What about the sawing through of the structural beams? The conspirators would be foolhardy to rely on explosives alone, unless they had so many truckloads of them to make it completely foolproof, which, as described in the above paragraph, is not likely. If it takes weeks to wire the King Dome, do you really think you can get the WTC towers, plus Building 7, all ready to go in 36 hours? While people are working their normal jobs all around you? While the people doing the wiring have to go about it surreptitiously?

Does this make any sense to you?

The most damning evidence that the towers were not demolished is the lack of any evidence of the explosives being discovered prior to 9/11.

Consider it. The two largest buildings in the world, plus Building 7, all sitting there, chock full of explosives, with their structural beams carefully sawed through, just waiting for Larry Silverstein or George Bush or Justin Timberlake or whoever plotted it to pull the trigger.

You've got 100,000 people going about their daily business in those towers--office workers, managers, security guards, janitors, electricians, IT staff, waiters, busboys, mail room clerks and maintenance guys. People opening closets and going into basements, cleaning bathrooms and unlocking storage cabinets in little-used offices.

Not one of these 100,000 people notices a wire where it shouldn't be, or a block of plastique taped to the wall?

Not one?

Conspiracists love to trumpet misinterpeted and fraudulent descriptions of what happened on 9/11 as "evidence" of controlled demolition. Willie Rodriguez is a perfect example. But for every "eyewitness account" who describes what they call "explosions," I am aware of no single witness who says he or she discovered any of the explosives before the disaster, or who saw people going around planting them. This is the evidence conspiracists should be looking for. Not Willie Rodriguez.

Think about it before you assume that the towers were wired. It's a major flaw in the conspiracy theory, and one which, six years on, has not yet been adequately addressed.

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THE KOD

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Consider it. The two largest buildings in the world, plus Building 7, all sitting there, chock full of explosives, with their structural beams carefully sawed through, just waiting for Larry Silverstein or George Bush or Justin Timberlake or whoever plotted it to pull the trigger.

You've got 100,000 people going about their daily business in those towers--office workers, managers, security guards, janitors, electricians, IT staff, waiters, busboys, mail room clerks and maintenance guys. People opening closets and going into basements, cleaning bathrooms and unlocking storage cabinets in little-used offices.

Not one of these 100,000 people notices a wire where it shouldn't be, or a block of plastique taped to the wall?

Not one?

............................................................

This is the kind of logic that just makes you guys look like fools and jesters.
 

marine

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guess that pretty much sums it up.

Have you made your "calls" yet donkey?
Sorry for using a widely accepted mainstream news source as my source of info on engineering schools. I realize it is not from some blog somewhere on the big ole internet so it doesn't quite carry the same weight.
 

Jabberwocky

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Have you made your "calls" yet donkey?
Sorry for using a widely accepted mainstream news source as my source of info on engineering schools. I realize it is not from some blog somewhere on the big ole internet so it doesn't quite carry the same weight.

I only have contacts at top engineering schools, I have nobody to call at government community colleges. Honestly "Marine"...:mj07: this is the last time I will address you. I suggest to you, again, that you find something else to do with your time.
 

marine

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You're right, ok then... i'm gonna go get my crayons out and draw velocity. Man, i LOVE drawing dinosaurs!

I'm soooooooooooo curious. What is your engineering background knowledge? How am I going to have a conversation with you about it if I don't know what level you are at?

I know what you are going to say.... I have friends who are at top engineering schools right now. So by osmosis, cuz they are smart, and I know them, I am smart.

371722903_7c7247a2f9.jpg
 
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THE KOD

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Simple answers for simple minds!

:00x33
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you know what really makes me laugh my ass off chud ?

Is that you block us , then you cant stand it and take it off. Then you block us, then you take us off.....

Do you realize what a complete moron this makes you look like ?
 

pt1gard

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the suspicious recant

the suspicious recant

=======================================
BATTLE: AN EXPERT RECANTS ON WHY WTC TOWERS COLLAPSED
By John Flaherty and Jared Israel

[Originally posted 14 September 2001 under the title, "'Explosives Planted In Towers,' New Mexico Tech Expert Says. Updated 26 December 2001 Revised 26 August 2002]

=======================================

Emperor's Clothes has not commented on the debate over the collapse of the World Trade Center (WTC) towers.

Some argue that the towers were brought down by explosives. Others (including defenders of the official story on 9-11) insist that the towers collapsed because fire weakened the steel support structure.

On September 14th we did post an interesting article from the Albuquerque Journal concerning the WTC towers.

It is based on an interview with Van Romero, the director of research at the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology.

According to the article, Mr. Romero:

'studies explosive materials and the effects of explosions on buildings, aircraft and other structures.'

His Institute:

'assists in forensic investigations into terrorist attacks, often by setting off similar explosions and studying the effects.'

The Institute is funded, at least in part, by grants from the Pentagon.

Van Romero reported that he had studied the videos of the WTC collapse and concluded that the towers were most likely destroyed by carefully placed demolition charges. He told the 'Journal':

"It would be difficult for something from the plane to trigger an event like that."

FROM EXPERT OPINION TO 'SUPPORT' STATEMENT

We posted the Journal story with a link to its Web address. But when you go that address, you don't see the original story. You see a rebuttal, entitled, "Fire, Not Extra Explosives, Doomed Buildings, Expert Says."

It's a rebuttal to the original story. Unless you read almost to end of the rebuttal, you won't see that the original story is posted below it. Very odd.

The original article and the rebuttal have a very different 'feel.'

Reading the original article, it is clear that Romero is motivated by a desire to understand what happened. This is not surprising; after all he studies how buildings collapse. He isn't thinking about political implications; he's thinking about science. He doesn't have an axe to grind. He explains himself clearly and he is quoted frequently.

In the retraction, Romero is only quoted twice. Instead of letting the man speak for himself, the reporter keeps repeating the official explanation of why the WTC buildings collapsed, informing us that Romero accepts it.

And regarding that word, "supports," doesn't it suggest a political rather than a scientific act? Consider:

"Romero [now] *supports* other experts, who have said the intense heat of the jet fuel fires weakened the skyscrapers' steel structural beams to the point that they gave way under the weight of the floors above.

Why didn't the Journal let this researcher, who "assists in forensic investigations into terrorist attacks," explain for himself what new information caused him to change his expert opinion?

What did he learn between 9-11 and 9-21, the date of the retraction, from "conversations with structural engineers"?

How could someone who has spent years researching "explosive materials and the effects of explosions on buildings, aircraft and other structures" not know about the steel beams in the WTC?

Or has Mr. Romero confined his research to older buildings, i.e., those constructed prior to 1972? Before agreeing to do forensic work on a building blown up by terrorists, does he ask, "When was it built?" And if the answer is, "After 1972," does he turn down the investigation?

In the retraction, Romero is quoted twice:

The first quote is short: "Certainly the fire is what caused the building to fail."

"Certainly"?!

Why would an experimental scientist, commenting on anyone's previous conclusion - in this case, his own - demean the original assessment as "certainly" wrong?

Wouldn't that mean Romero "certainly" assessed this most important terrorist attack without first getting the facts? Doesn't that make Romero a sloppy scientist?

How humiliating for a man who acts as an expert witness in courts of law.

And consider the second quote:

Second quote: "Romero said he has been bombarded with electronic mail from the conspiracy theorists. 'I'm very upset about that,' he said. 'I'm not trying to say anything did or didn't happen.'" [End quote]

Note that the Journal dismisses those who doubt the official story as "conspiracy theorists." This newspaper has become a public relations service for Washington. And note the suggestion of desperation in Romero's comment that, "I'm not trying to say anything did or didn't happen.'"

He's not?

But in the original piece, he was quoted saying the WTC most likely collapsed due to demolition charges. And in the retraction he is quoted saying he "certainly" was wrong.

Moreover, isn;t deciding whether "anything did or didn't happen" the goal of all of Romero's research. He "studies explosive materials and the effects of explosions on buildings, aircraft and other structures" in order to determine what "did or didn't happen."

It seems that in both quotes Van Romero negates himself, first as incompetent, then as irrelevant. Or perhaps his second comment, that "I'm not trying to say anything did or didn't happen," may be seen in a different light. We shall return to that.

Why did Mr. Romero recant? Consider the following paragraph from the original story:

"Romero said he and another Tech administrator were on a Washington-area subway when an airplane struck the Pentagon. He said he and Denny Peterson, vice president for administration and finance, were en route to an office building near the Pentagon to discuss defense-funded research programs at Tech. [New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology, where Romero is Vice President for research.]"

Here is our hypothesis.

Romero gave the original interview right after the WTC attacks. He said what he thought, unaware he was stepping on a land mine.

But the powers-that-be were aware.

The paymaster of Romero's research institute is the Pentagon. Directly or indirectly, pressure was brought to bear, forcing Romero to retract his original statement. But perhaps expressing his exasperation with this pressure, he added, "I'm not trying to say anything about what did or did not happen." In this way, perhaps, he refused to recant entirely.

If our hypothesis is right, it illustrates three features of the new American Empire.

First: it has great wealth, which it wields shamelessly. (And often to ludicrous effect. Consider the hyperbole with which the Bush administration praised Pakistan for 'cooperating' in crushing the Taliban, which is, by the way, the collective child of the covert services of Pakistan, the U.S. and Saudi Arabia. And consider how - immediately afterwards! - the Bush administration announced that Pakistan would receive millions of dollars in aid and cancellation of debt.)

So the first fact about the U.S. empire is: it pays for virtue.

Second: from the virtuous it demands servility. If the virtuous should err, so must the virtuous grovel. Otherwise, no cash.

Third: despite all its weapons and money, the U.S. Empire still has difficulty getting human beings to grovel. Thus, it may have been in order to hold onto some integrity that Van Romero said, "I'm not trying to say anything about what did or did not happen." The man relies on the Pentagon for funding; yet perhaps the man resists.

In an email to Emperor's clothes, Joan T., a reader, wrote: "What good is money without freedom?"

What good indeed.

- John Flaherty and Jared Israel

***

'ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL' ~ "'EXPLOSIVES PLANTED IN TOWERS,' NEW MEXICO TECH EXPERT SAYS." By Olivier Uyttebrouck Journal Staff Writer

Televised images of the attacks on the World Trade Center suggest that explosives devices caused the collapse of both towers, a New Mexico Tech explosion expert said Tuesday.

The collapse of the buildings appears "too methodical" to be a chance result of airplanes colliding with the structures, said Van Romero, vice president for research at New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology.

"My opinion is, based on the videotapes, that after the airplanes hit the World Trade Center there were some explosive devices inside the buildings that caused the towers to collapse," Romero said.

Romero is a former director of the Energetic Materials Research and Testing Center at Tech, which studies explosive materials and the effects of explosions on buildings, aircraft and other structures.

Romero said he based his opinion on video aired on national television broadcasts.

Romero said the collapse of the structures resembled those of controlled implosions used to demolish old structures.

"It would be difficult for something from the plane to trigger an event like that," Romero said in a phone interview from Washington, D.C.

Romero said he and another Tech administrator were on a Washington-area subway when an airplane struck the Pentagon.

He said he and Denny Peterson, vice president for administration and finance, were en route to an office building near the Pentagon to discuss defense-funded research programs at Tech.

If explosions did cause the towers to collapse, the detonations could have been caused by a small amount of explosive, he said.

"It could have been a relatively small amount of explosives placed in strategic points," Romero said. The explosives likely would have been put in more than two points in each of the towers, he said.

The detonation of bombs within the towers is consistent with a common terrorist strategy, Romero said.

"One of the things terrorist events are noted for is a diversionary attack and secondary device," Romero said.

Attackers detonate an initial, diversionary explosion that attracts emergency personnel to the scene, then detonate a second explosion, he said.

Romero said that if his scenario is correct, the diversionary attack would have been the collision of the planes into the towers.

Tech President Dan Lopez said Tuesday that Tech had not been asked to take part in the investigation into the attacks. Tech often assists in forensic investigations into terrorist attacks, often by setting off similar explosions and studying the effects.

(C) 2001, 'Albuquerque Journal,' Reprinted for Fair Use Only
 
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marine

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let it go man. let the thread remain dormant so we can end this nonsense.
It's on the internet, so it must be true.
:mj07:

 
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pt1gard

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heard yesterday we have murdered a million iraqis since gulf war, mostly innocent citizens, women and children... isnt that lovely, shouldnt our military be proud :nono: ...

i guess thats why so many have deserted and committed suicide in record numbers bc some do have a conscience ... obviously the depleted uranium is def. a necessary staple, i dont see the pro-official story geniuses ever addressing that, then again theyd say it was all a conspiracy we truth seekers uncover, or that it doesnt cause 10xs more birth defetcs and one nano particle can travel home in a lung or piece of clothing and later cause retardation to babies or kill the GI and his family ...

continue to block the mindless, they are not worth responding to ... i do think its funny when they run to jack and whine, shows how limited their minds are and I love it :00hour
 
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marine

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continue to block the mindless, they are not worth responding to ... i do think its funny when they run to jack and whine, shows how limited their minds are and I love it :00hour

put me back on ignore. I liked it better that way.
murdered almost a million innocents and civilians eh? go back and get your "facts" from some place other than moveon.org
 
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