Boxing 6/26 - 6/27

nj

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A lot of these points are up for debate, NJ- as far as Ortiz being too polite for the sport, he's never had a problem trying to knock guys heads off and has left many seperated from their senses- seems like a killer in the ring. And the right gameplan and focus is no guaranteed victory for Ortiz against Funky Cold Maidana. Maidana is probably better than first meets the eye. What was the last punch to send Ortiz down- a left to the liver, Maidana realizes the value and is good at body punching. I was actually suprised by the variation in Maidana's attack against Kotelnik, up and down, changing pace.... Much was talked about his wide looping punches and that ended up being a crock with that beautiful straight right that decked Ortiz in the first and then when he needed a looping punch he timed a bomb around Ortiz's guard at the end of the 5th round bell which I thought knocked the will and focus out of Ortiz. He obviously hits well with both hands with that damaging left hook, and he also counterupunched , not just crudely leading and chasing Ortiz.... didn't see much of a jab although that is harder against a southpaw . I was just getting frustrated by the amount of people labeling Ortiz a quitter, just like some did to Vasquez in Marquez 1. Ortiz fought hurt, almost got his guy out of there and just ran into an exceptional opponent who wasn't going to be denied and was starting to inflict major damage. Ortiz knew he only had Jacks to Maidana's Aces and decided to fold rather than go all in and get crushed.

That straight right hand was a shocker. He still threw primarily wide shots in the fight, and telegraphed them. He has a sort of awkward effectiveness, Mayorga-like but without the same caliber chin. We can't change our perceptions of him based on 1 straight punch thrown, when the majority are winged. Though I was impressed with his left hook, the way he timed Ortiz coming in.

I'll have to watch it again, but I saw him as being slower, less accurate, and less skilled. He's also a blatant cheater, those were hard shots he threw consistently to the back of Ortiz's head. He fights with more skill and intelligence than expected - like Mayorga - but let's not get ahead of ourselves here, clearly Ortiz is the better talent and the more schooled boxer.

I agree about Trinidad ending Vargas, and another young fighter in David Reid. Those careers were rushed.

If Ortiz is as smart as we think he is, he's probably realized that his opponents can't earn a paycheck any better way. They are getting TV dates against a big-name opponent, and consciously chose to get knocked out for that money rather than mow a few thousand lawns. And no matter how reluctant you are to hurt someone BEFORE getting into the ring, anyone with sense knows you have to shut off your conscience once the bell rings, because your opponent is there to hurt you. Kill or be killed. Feel guilty before and after. A good example is Roy Jones.

The Ring wrote an article about the Freitas-Corrales bout, and summed it up beautifully: Freitas quitting doesn't make him any less of a man, but it does make him less of a fighter. Ortiz doesn't lack character as a human, but clearly his character as a fighter is worth questioning. The boxing media wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't scrutinize him.
 

Romi

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I think it's quite safe to say Vargas was ruined and never the same after the Trinidad bout and that's a damn shame so now you got me thinking and the more I think about it- what a wise move by Ortiz to ensure he can again fight at an optimum level.

Couldn't agree more. Ortiz is much wiser than the average fighter or fan. Your points earlier regarding Chico and Johnson are just 2 examples of fighters that didn't know when to stop and didn't have corners that would do it for them. There are countless others. Anybody take a close look at Ali and Frasier lately? How about Danny Little Red Lopez? Bobby Chacon? As far as I'm concerned nobody has the right to question the kids heart. Max was way out of line questioning Vic why he didn't "go out on his shield". I like Max but he dropped the ball big time with his line of questioning. People can debate this all they want but at least attempt to keep things in perspective. Not to get melodramatic about this but fighters put THEIR HEALTH and sometimes their lives on the line simply for OUR ENTERTAINMENT.
 

MayorgaFan

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yes and a few more fighters alive today if fighters and cornermen had Ortiz's smarts. Levander Johnson comes to mind. Corrales was never the same after Castillo 1 and you can make a reasonable argument that fight was the beginning of the end. All you internet keyboard tough guys calling Ortiz a quitter, etc, it's just so darn transparent that you had $$$$ on Ortiz and are pissed about it. Yea , Vic should have risked brain damage in a losing battle to give a few gambling degenerates a chance to win their wager. Did you mindless simpletons not see him out of it in the corner after taking that hellacious shot against the ropes as the bell rung, that after taking a nasty left hook that cut him open.
What you ought to be doing is questioning yourselves for laying chalk on someone who had been down against Tomas Barrientes and DARIO ESALES..... yea, exactly.. WHO?- journeyman and GoldenBoy unwisely matches him against perhaps the purest puncher in the division with the Kotelinik fight under his belt and then post fight Mr New Deer meat diet for Paq- Oscar walks into the ring with a look of disgust , shaking his head at Ortiz and what was Oscar doing at age 22- being guided perfectly by TopRank against smaller and/or older fighters, just like Top Rank was doing for Ortiz, knowing his flaws, until Ortiz was guided to declare bankruptcy and get a nice signing bonus to go with Golden Boy. So Oscar and all you internet tough guys who I'm sure would have easily stood up to Maidana's punches can go play in traffic.


Funny post and you couldn't be more wrong. I liked Madaina and there's someone else who liked him who can verify that:nono: I make plenty of losing bets but this wasn't 1 of them. That pretty much makes the rest of your post irrelevant. At the end of the day though these guys are supposed to know what they are getting into when they chose boxing as a career. The truth is although Ortiz had been hurt so had Madaina. Ortiz gave up on himself while Madaina didn't. He didn't take a sustained beating or anything and it was only the 6th round. It was a pretty bad quit job and NOTHING like Johnson-Chavez which was never even a competitive fight. Lots of fighters would be big losers if they had Ortiz's attitude.
 
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Oddessa

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Mayorgafan and I were chattin after round 2 saying that Madaina getting up was gonna really test Ortiz heart because Madaina was going out with a win or on a stretcher.

First number out there was Victor Ortiz -365 and money drove the price through the roof so alotta unhappy players, but Mayorga wasnt one of them.
 

punchmaster

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Funny post and you couldn't be more wrong. I liked Madaina and there's someone else who liked him who can verify that:nono: I make plenty of losing bets but this wasn't 1 of them. That pretty much makes the rest of your post irrelevant. At the end of the day though these guys are supposed to know what they are getting into when they chose boxing as a career. The truth is although Ortiz had been hurt so had Madaina. Ortiz gave up on himself while Madaina didn't. He didn't take a sustained beating or anything and it was only the 6th round. It was a pretty bad quit job and NOTHING like Johnson-Chavez which was never even a competitive fight. Lots of fighters would be big losers if they had Ortiz's attitude.

The post wasn't meant to be funny MF and actually I didn't mean to single you out as another pissed off guy who had money on Ortiz but there were clearly many posters with biased responses based on having money on Ortiz, and I never understood the odds in the first place with plus +800 ITD on a puncher like Maidana against a questionable chinned opponent. Your right with Johnson-Chavez being NOTHING like Ortiz-Maidana since fairly feather fisted volume puncher Chavez hits NOTHING like flame thrower Maidana. Ortiz shot his load and got hiit with a punch at the very end of the fifth that appeared to leave him somewhat unresponsive between rounds. But I guess there are those that just want to see these guy fight until their on their backs unconcious- to each his own. I recall some guy named Duran saying No Mas and Hopkins faking he was low blowed since Calzaghe was on his way to overwhelming and stopping him. I think what Ortiz did was much more respectable . Sorry if I seemed to be singling you out and I didn't take your post as you having money on Ortiz either. I just think Ortiz is catching way to much because he's honest and didnt' want to be rendered unconcious in front of thousands of people.
 

gardenweasel

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"the bunker"
i see both sides of the argument......but honestly,what`s the difference between ortiz`no mas and cotto`s?........

maybe the fact that cotto was getting hit with cinder blocks(but he didn`t know it at the time)....and yes,he took more punishment than ortiz(much,much more)....i think the difference is that cotto had already proven himself...while ortiz hasn`t....

i think the most disturbing part of ortiz`"retirement" was his commentary afterward.....it sounded to me like he questioned whether he wanted to continue in the sport....

those comments were very disturbing,particularly for dlh("ortiz is a top pfp guy") ,who looked like he wanted to go find some clean skivvies......

bottom line is, i think all the ortiz hype...coupled with many "too easy" fights,messed up his head....i think he bought into his own hype and couldn`t deal when somebody just as tough pushed back...hard....
 
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Zerwas

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i think the most disturbing part of ortiz`"retirement" was his commentary afterward.....it sounded to me like he questioned whether he wanted to continue in the sport....

Exactly!

It was just very strange, he was laughing a lot (I know that this can be a way to express ones uncertainty) but he also seemed relieved in some way...and I can understand that as well.

Its just very strange for a prizefighter....especially for one that wants to go far and has his career ahead of him.


And IMO its not a question of if it was a wise decision. He certainly didnt look as though he could win when the fight was stopped (even though its hard to say whether he was more handicapped by the punches or the shock), but it's probably not wise anyway to step into a boxing ring, so -as it has already been mentionned- he might just be too pensive and too reluctant to make the sacrifices for this kind of career.

Thats my 2 Cents, and I was on Maidana and I dont like when fighters take unnecessary punishment.
 

Ghost Kid

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Golden Boy Promotions and Victor Ortiz are now in full spin mode
http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/6/30/931088/tuesday-notes-victor-ortiz-tries

Oscar de la Hoya chimes in: "Victor is a 22-year old kid with a brilliant future ahead of him in boxing. ... He got caught a couple times trying to go for the knockout even though he was clearly winning the fight."

And Richard Schaefer plays the blame game: "Victor suffered from being hit by several illegal blows to the back of the head and was sent to the hospital after the fight for a post-fight check-up as a precaution. He was there until close to 3am for testing, and although he is thought to have suffered a concussion, was released from the hospital."
 

Romi

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Golden Boy Promotions and Victor Ortiz are now in full spin mode
http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/6/30/931088/tuesday-notes-victor-ortiz-tries

Oscar de la Hoya chimes in: "Victor is a 22-year old kid with a brilliant future ahead of him in boxing. ... He got caught a couple times trying to go for the knockout even though he was clearly winning the fight."

And Richard Schaefer plays the blame game: "Victor suffered from being hit by several illegal blows to the back of the head and was sent to the hospital after the fight for a post-fight check-up as a precaution. He was there until close to 3am for testing, and although he is thought to have suffered a concussion, was released from the hospital."

There are going to be numerous takes on the fight. I watched it again last night and still find it difficult to call Ortiz a quitter. Did he turn his back on the ref-Yes. Did he give it his all and battle back from adversity, kd, bad cut, brutal shots etc -Yes. Even Max alluded to Ortiz answering the question of his toughness as early as the 2nd rd. Ordinary people dont take that kind of abuse and go back for more. IMO he answered the call of duty and did well but just didnt have enough to get over the hill. I don't think it was his heart that gave out. I believe it was the inability to take further punishment. Maidana is a different breed and he'll always fight to the the end. In that sense, Ortiz is not made of the same mold. Cotto did essentially the same thing v Margarito. He was done and walking away when the towel came in. NOBODY questioned his heart. Had the corner thrown in the towel in the 6th just prior to Ortiz walking away then NOBODY would have questioned his heart. Ortiz doesn't have the chin or the battle hardened attitude of a Chico. I think people confuse heart with the ability to take a beating and keep coming back. Gatti was a blood and guts warrior with heart and a good chin but I doubt he could take punches from a featherweight at this point. Ortiz chose to save his ass to fight on for another day. IMO the corner should have beat him to it. I think people owe him gratitude for a great fight rather than pouring salt on the wound for not take more of a beating. I'm done with this topic.
 
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