discovery channel has 2 hour special tonight on the global warming debate.

Happy Hippo

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blgstocks said:
I think it is obvious that alot of us have made up our minds on the issue, including you Hippo.

think Dennis Miller said it best for me, (This is paraphrased.) "What do you guys think about global warming? Me, I don't know about it. Yeah I believe it, but i dont know how much of it I believe. It sounds like earths temperature has risen by about 1 degree over the last hundred years. But excuse me for not buying into the idea that we had a firm grasp on reading the temperature of the earth's magma a hundred years ago.We were still shitting in a hole in the ground"

blgstocks - Well I was done with this thread, but I would like to verify that I have made up my mind on this issue. In a case like this, where we have but ONE EARTH to live on, I would like to err on the side of caution and preserve it for future generations, so they don't have to shit in a hole in the ground. What's the big deal anyway? It is just a matter of being a steward of the earth. Is that so hard? On an individual level all we can do is reduce our own carbon footprint. Is that too much to ask, just in case? :shrug:

Not for me... :sadwave:
 

blgstocks

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before your done with this thread hippo could you answer me a question

I did not make it all the way through this global warming showw to find out if they actually told you what you can do about it. Like on a personal basis.

Even though i dont follow swallow what any of these guys are saying and think it will be a alot less than they predict, but i would still like to do my part if i have the chance. I mean what can one person do to help fight against global warming.

Thanks for any info
 

shamrock

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does freeze, the scientist, use any punctuation at the end of sentences, or just keep rambling on babbleing away?
 

Happy Hippo

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blgstocks said:
Even though i dont follow swallow what any of these guys are saying and think it will be a alot less than they predict, but i would still like to do my part if i have the chance. I mean what can one person do to help fight against global warming.

Thanks for any info

blgstocks - I never mind answering nice questions ;)

They did have a short blurb at the end of the program on "what you can do". The only thing I remember in particular is unplugging appliances when you are not using them saves a lot of electricity. Electronics (TV, stereo, computers, etc) use up to 40% of their power while idling off. All the other things that were covered are things I already do...


CONSERVING ELECTRICITY/NATURAL GAS or using alternative energy (turn off lights when not in use, solar panels, many companies also offer alternative energy sources such as wind energy)

BUY FUEL EFFICIENT VEHICLES and DRIVE THEM PROPERLY (I used to love accelerating fast on the road:nono: but my new car has a mpg meter and now I really realize the importance of slow acceleration)

RECYCLE & CREATE LESS TRASH (reduce, reuse - methane gas from landfills contributes to the "problem" ;))

BUY RECYCLED PRODUCTS (all paper products especially)

BUY LOCALLY (Try to buy as many local products as you can, and of course as many AMERICAN products as you can, because planes produce more CO2 than any other form of transportation. The more local you buy, the less your food/products have to travel! And it is good to support local business.)

BUILD/BUY GREEN (If you are in construction/remodeling, use "green" products [no not :weed:]. Don't buy unsustainable wood for construction or furniture. Unsustainable logging practices are a huge contributor to deforestation (and we need the trees to regulate the CO2)).

There are a lot more things you can do, but those are the big ones, I think. There is a lot of research in the alternative energy field right now, so there should be some interesting new technology in the next few years. Hope that wasn't too much of a tirade and that I didn't sound self-righteous (I am very humble)...


And remember boys - Chicks do dig hybrids!
 

smurphy

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Happy Hippo said:
And remember boys - Chicks do dig hybrids!
Where are you located and which chicks? Actually I did notice a dramatic increase in number of women who were at least not turned off by my Civic Hybrid when I moved from Vegas to Santa Barbara. In Vegas, they treated me like I was driving a golf cart.

I pretty much agree with everything you've mentioned on this issue. Regardless of the extent to which we effect the environment, the fact is we do effect it.

Collectively, the little things add up. Unfortunately, just when it looked like we were headed towards greater fuel effeciency 15 years ago - all of a sudden it was nothing but SUV's and other gas hogs being crammed down our throats. The only way this will change is for gas too simply become too expensive.

I know what you mean about the mpg meter. Totally changed the way I drove too. If every car had an indicator like that, there'd be a lot less useless acceleration - you can literally see your money fly away.
 

Happy Hippo

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smurphy said:
Where are you located and which chicks? Actually I did notice a dramatic increase in number of women who were at least not turned off by my Civic Hybrid when I moved from Vegas to Santa Barbara. In Vegas, they treated me like I was driving a golf cart.

:mj07: :mj07:

What chicks? The smart ones... ;)

I live in Colorado, spend most of my time in Boulder, and the number of hybrid/electric vehicles is increasing quickly. Although the SUVs do still dominate the roads here...
 
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DOGS THAT BARK

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Was reading London paper about record setting temp and then went on to attribute it to global warming--however it broke previous record which was set in 1911?

Average Global Temperature, 1880-2005

Year Temperature
Degrees Celsius

1880 13.88
1881 13.88
1882 14.00
1883 13.96
1884 13.59
1885 13.77
1886 13.75
1887 13.55
1888 13.77
1889 14.04
1890 13.78
1891 13.44
1892 13.60
1893 13.61
1894 13.68
1895 13.68
1896 13.73
1897 13.85
1898 13.79
1899 13.76
1900 13.95
1901 13.95
1902 13.70
1903 13.64
1904 13.58
1905 13.75
1906 13.85
1907 13.60
1908 13.70
1909 13.69
1910 13.79
1911 13.74
1912 13.67
1913 13.72
1914 13.98
1915 14.06
1916 13.80
1917 13.54
1918 13.67
1919 13.91
1920 13.85
1921 13.95
1922 13.91
1923 13.84
1924 13.89
1925 13.85
1926 14.04
1927 13.95
1928 14.00
1929 13.78
1930 13.97
1931 14.03
1932 14.04
1933 13.89
1934 14.05
1935 13.92
1936 14.01
1937 14.12
1938 14.15
1939 13.98
1940 14.14
1941 14.11
1942 14.10
1943 14.06
1944 14.11
1945 13.99
1946 14.01
1947 14.12
1948 13.97
1949 13.91
1950 13.83
1951 13.98
1952 14.03
1953 14.12
1954 13.91
1955 13.91
1956 13.82
1957 14.08
1958 14.10
1959 14.05
1960 13.98
1961 14.10
1962 14.05
1963 14.03
1964 13.65
1965 13.75
1966 13.93
1967 13.98
1968 13.91
1969 14.00
1970 14.04
1971 13.90
1972 13.95
1973 14.18
1974 13.94
1975 13.98
1976 13.79
1977 14.16
1978 14.07
1979 14.13
1980 14.27
1981 14.40
1982 14.10
1983 14.34
1984 14.16
1985 14.13
1986 14.19
1987 14.35
1988 14.42
1989 14.28
1990 14.49
1991 14.44
1992 14.16
1993 14.18
1994 14.31
1995 14.47
1996 14.36
1997 14.40
1998 14.71
1999 14.44
2000 14.41
2001 14.56
2002 14.70
2003 14.64
2004 14.60
2005 14.77
 

djv

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DTB did it say this year was already running higher then last years record. I thought I heard that other day on weather channel. That chart sure does show a lot of 14's lately. Long way back to 1976.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Does appear may be slightly warmer of late--but had 7 of 10 years in 40's in the 1940's--?? Don't get me wrong I'm for anything we can do within means to curtail emmisions and am definately pro environmental controls but more so on rain forest and preserving waterlands issues ect.-- I just don't agree with the sky is falling many are projecting.
 

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In response to Hippo about what we can do

I thought it was very interesting about the electronics idling spending 40% of the electricty. I leavemy desktop on 24/7 but dont worry about it since it is mostly idling.

I watched a penn and teller show on recycling and they had a very convincing argument that recycling,besides aluminum cans, is a waste of time and in some cases (recycled paper products) can actually hurt the environment.
It was really interesting, and I dnt know if any on here have seen the show, but they do a good job on alot of issues, some episodes lately have actually been pretty weak though.

I was watching the news and it went like this "solutions to help global warming used to be as trivial as turning off your lights and rotating your tires, but after the break we will show you ways that you can actually make a difference in stopping global warming" ..... unfortunately I had to take off during the break......to another channel that is, but I thought maybe you would know what some of those "new" ways of fighting global warming were, since most of the ways you listed have been known for years, thanks for the response though and hope to hear from you soon
 

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blgstocks - I feel like I'm back in school taking an exam! lol...

Aluminum cans are definitely the most cost-effective item to recycle. I cannot speak directly to the Penn & Teller show because I didn't see it, but there has been convincing evidence for many years that recycling paper is worthwhile as well. I would have to see the evidence from these studies that say recycling is not effective, to see what factors they take into account (i.e. do they include deforestation, cost of transport, etc). I also try to buy as many alternative paper products as possible - for example, I use hemp printing paper. The most important thing is to REDUCE trash as much as possible, because methane gas is 20 times as effective as CO2 at trapping heat.

http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/press_releases/supplementaries/1997/recbrief-19971121173529.htm

The little things still help - energy efficient bulbs, efficient appliances, good house insulation, turning off lights, etc. If everyone in America did these things, it would surely make a difference. Anything to conserve fossil fuels and lessen impact on the earth helps. I'm not sure what else they could have covered in the news program... If anyone has anything to add, please feel free.

Well there is one more thing. I didn't mention it before, because it requires the most change. The number 1 cause of methane production in America is from the meat industry. For every calorie of animal protein produced, 10 times as much fossil fuel input is required compared to a calorie of plant food. That being said, I realize going vegetarian is not an easy option. So another option is just to cut a little meat out of the diet, say one meal a week to start...

http://www.epa.gov/methane/sources.html
http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/06/060413.diet.shtml

And there are a lot of tax incentives offered by state & federal govt for improving home energy efficiency:

http://www.dsireusa.org/

But the small things are what matter most and like I said before there is some great technology being developed. I'll post an interesting article that I read today below. There is plenty of hope for the future - that is the good news!
 

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Super Hot Solar Energy
Katie Moyer, Mother Earth News, Aug/Sept 2006

A new solar plant in Nevada shows the potential of the southwestern United States' deserts to provide a significant amount of clean, renewable energy from concentrating solar power (CSP). Though most people are familiar with photovoltaic (PV) systems, CSP is one of the most promising large-scale energy technologies.
The combination of intense sun and large areas of flat land make the Southwest an ideal location for CSP systems. One type of CSP is parabolic trough technology, in which fields of curved mirrors focus solar radiation onto collector tubes. The collected 750 degree thermal energy creates steam that powers electric generators. According to the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE), CSP plants covering 9 percent of Nevada could generate enough electricity to meet the needs of the entire United States!
Traditionally, PV technology has received the most attention in the solar power industry. PV systems use the sun's light (radiant energy) to produce electricity, usually for small-scale applications. CSP, however, uses the sun's heat (thermal energy) to produce power in utility-size installations. For example, Nevada Solar One -- a 64 megawatt CSP plant under construction in Boulder City -- will produce enough electricity to power 40,000 homes, resulting in a reduction in annual greenhouse gases equivalent to removing 20,000 cars from U.S. roads.
Parabolic trough plants, ranging in size from 14 to 80 megawatts, have been operating efficiently in the Mojave Desert for as long as 20 years. The Nevada Solar One project, the largest solar-electric plant to be built in the last 15 years, was designed by Solargenix Energy.
According to Mark Mehos, CSP program manager at the DOE's National Renewable Energy Laboratory, parabolic trough technology currently is the most cost-effective solar option because it uses inexpensive materials -- gears, turbines, glass, steel and aluminum -- instead of more expensive silicon. With the DOE's stated goal of installing 1,000 megawatts of CSP (enough to power nearly 750,000 homes) by 2010, solar thermal technology is one of the many proven forms of alternative energy leading the charge toward energy independence.
 

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very good website and article hippo
I am a very big fan of solar energy, i actually grew up in the mojave desert and there is going to be the second largest solar powerplant built in the high desert (a part of the mojave) where i recently moved from. Not only does it power an insane amount of homes, but it provides alot of jobs and boosts the economy of the area because of all the new jobs. I think solar power plants or that CSP you were talkin about are the way to go for now

As for the PandTeller episode their arguments against recycling itself is that it is cheaper to make new plastic than it is to recycle plastic. They said that the paper products, and your report touched on this too, required a de-inking that leaves a sludge that is a pollutant. Also with paper, they say that most(almost all) of the paper used to make paper in the us comes from Paper farms designed just for planting trees for them to be used for these purposes, they said that alot of environmentalist use rhetoric like "virgin forest" but rarely is this the case anymore. They said that if we want more trees, we should use more wood because its simple economics that people will plant more trees.

They also talked about the myth of landfills, that they are dirty disgusting places with flies and seagulls and immigrants(jk) living in them. But they went to a landfill and tlked to govt figures and landfill guys who run them and workers and they all said that landfills were very safe, very clean(they had new layers of dirt neatly drug across the dirt nightly, and after the landfills are full they cover it off and turn it into a park or golf course. Also the methane gas that you refer to they have a ventalation (sp?) system that takes all the methane produced from the trash and puts it into a power plant that converts it into energy that could run alot of house(forget the number) they also showed that we are no way running out of space to fill our trash

All in all they did a pretty good job, and the people they interviewed on the opposing side of their arguement were govt officials in charge of recycling programs and the founder of the modern day recycling movement who worked in reagans adminstration, so these guys werent nobodys who didnt know their stuff.

U should definitely check it out if curious
 

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Do you remember that we had an Ice Age? Was it global warming that ended that or was it the natural progression of changing weather patterns?

This is no joke - in the 1970's scientists were telling us that we were going to have another Ice Age. It made the cover of Time magazine.

I think that any reasonable person would agree that human activity is/may be affecting the temperature of our environment. The question becomes how much? How fast? And is this just a computer simulation going berserk that is forecaster gloom and doom in the future?

The temperature has fluctuated forever. We have had many drastic (if you call changes over thousands of years drastic) changes in the past - why should we not expect them now?

As far as the current status of cars goes, the government is hardly pushing the 500 horsepower Corvettes and Shelby's down our throats. Consumers are willing to spend big bucks for muscle cars despite the gas mileage. What should the auto makers do, refuse to build anything but hybrids and electric cars? Most cars I have had in the past ten years did have a read out for miles per gallon spent at the given speed.

Good news for those who want power while helping save fuel is a new Lexus (don't know number). It is a hybrid with 339 horsepower. The only little problem with it is the price - $60,000 plus the goodies.

I think this is a complex problem, probably far too scientific in nature for most of us to understand with clarity. And there is a legion of scientists who disagree. I would say that signs are there, but it is being magnified way out of proportion. Of course, I don't proclaim expertise on this matter by any means nor should anyone else on this forum. (That is not a shot at Freeze)
 

SixFive

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hippo, et al, isn't it true that a diesel engine is more fuel effecient and would therefore be better for the envirnoment than a regular gasoline engine? I've never understood why the US automakers seem reluctant to make more cars with diesel engines.
 

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blgstocks - If I have a chance to watch it, I definitely will.

According to the DOE:

"It almost always takes less energy to make a product from recycled materials than it does to make it from new materials. Using recycled aluminum scrap to make new aluminum cans, for example, uses 96 percent less energy than making aluminum cans from bauxite ore, the raw material used to make aluminum. One exception to the recycling-saves-energy rule is plastics. Sometimes it takes more energy to recycle plastics than it does to use all new materials."

It is true that the de-inking process when recycling paper creates sludge waste, but creating paper from wood creates sulfur dioxide emissions. Overall (again according to DOE), "recycled paper does require fewer chemicals and bleaches than making all-new paper".

I believe that some landfills are state-of-the-art, but the one I take my trash to is just a big field with bulldozers... And as our population expands expotentially, we will eventually run out of space. I don't know about you, but personally I would never want to hang out in the park on top of an old dump!

Thanks for the good conversation blgstocks - it is encouraging that even if you don't necessarily subscribe to global warming, you are still willing to consider factors to lessen our impact on the earth.

If you are a Dr. Seuss fan, I would encourage you to see the movie "The Lorax". I watched this movie when I was in elementary school, and it changed my life. Still a great flick today - if you're a fan...

:toast:
 

Happy Hippo

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SixFive said:
hippo, et al, isn't it true that a diesel engine is more fuel effecient and would therefore be better for the envirnoment than a regular gasoline engine? I've never understood why the US automakers seem reluctant to make more cars with diesel engines.

Well...diesel vehicles are not necessarily that much better for the environment...

http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2004/february11/jacobson-211.html

But - diesel engines can run on many alternative fuel sources. The inventor of the diesel engine, Rudolph Diesel, designed the first diesel engines to run on peanut oil! Until the 1920's, diesel engines were run on vegetable oils. Henry Ford himself designed his diesel automobiles to run on ethanol, and he was convinced that renewable resources were the key to the automobile industry, but he was undercut by the petroleum industry in the 30s. New diesel-compatible fuels are being discovered all the time:

http://www.physorg.com/news70809806.html

And if we were to run our vehicles on ethanol again it would be a great story for the farmers such as my grandfather, who are not able to farm anymore because it is not cost effective...

The University of Colorado powers all of their busses with clean bio-diesel fuel and there is a gas station in town where you can fill up on bio-diesel. This is definitely a good solution to the problem of gas-guzzling vehicles, but if you don't have access to bio-diesel fuels, then I think that a more fuel-efficient car is the way to go...

As to why they don't want to make more diesel vehicles, I really don't know :shrug:
 

Happy Hippo

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Agent 0659 said:
Dam liberals and your tree hugging :look: :look: :look:


kurby

We were doing so well without the name-labeling in this thread...:nono: How do you know I'm a "liberal"? Liking the earth makes me liberal?:mj07:

OK - you got me I am "Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry." - damn liberals!

kurby
 

SixFive

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well, I think the global warming thing is overblown, but I also think we should be using more diesel. My first car was a little diesel Rabbit, and I loved that car. It was known to make 50 mpg. All these SUVs should be made with a diesel engine. I didn't look this up, but I think many of the European auto makers have large lines of diesel vehicles.
 
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