Isreal VS Arafat

[TIME TO MAKE $$$]

I have two arguments that I am going to present as I am sick of this war that has been going on for too long now.

This latest attack in the hotel that killed 20 people (I am not counting the suicide bomber) and "severely wounded" an additional 48 people with a total of more than 170 injured makes my blood boil. Imagine if that had happened here at an Easter celebration?
And yet there are still people making excuses. "Nabil Sha'ath, a Palestinian
Cabinet minister, denounced the attack and offered condolences to the victims. But he said Israel's "mentality of siege and occupation" has created such frustration and resentment that many Palestinians are ready to die for their cause "because there's no hope for living." These are sick people!

Remember why Israel is "occupying" this land? They responded to a surprise attack on three fronts in the 1967 "Yom Kippur War". The intent of those attacks was likely to massacre every Israeli - men, women, children, and babies. Israel has kept the land in order to provide more defensible borders. It's a tribute to their restraint that they haven't expelled all of the "Palestinians" back to Jordan, where most of them are citizens in the first place.

But, Israel isn't helping matters by flying over in gunships and blowing stuff up all the time...but yeah, you're right. Arafat can do nothing...he's just a figurehead. These suicide bombers are just militant Muslim thugs worthy of Al-Qaeda. They take no marching orders from anyone in particular.
And the Arabs will ALWAYS make up excuses because they'd love to see Israel gone and the whole Middle East made up of Muslim holy warriors or whatever...they just don't say so publicly cuz they're afraid of being nuked.

They may not want war individually, but get a bunch of Arabs together and they find some kind of unity in hating America and non-muslims. Deep down, even the ones who work with us would like to see us fall.

I'm not saying it's their fault for being so hateful and war-like, but they're born and bred that way, so it's kinda hard, if not impossible, to teach them any different. I feel pity for them, yes, but I don't sympathize with their cause. They just want to scare Israel out of the Middle East. If the whole world decided to displace the Jews from Israel and give it to the Palestinians, they wouldn't stop there. They'd start suicide bombing in ANOTHER country and find some historio-religious grounds to demand that land too.

Sometimes I wonder if exterminating them all isn't such a bad idea. These people truly believe their greatest reward will come from walking into a public building and blowing themselves up, dying in a "holy war." If they want a "holy war," I say we give 'em one. If we end up killing all of them, then at least they'll be with their 27 virgins if they're right. We're doing them a FAVOR.

Militant Islam is a cancer on this world...militant ANY RELIGION is a cancer on this world. All it is is using religion as a means of manipulating people and as an excuse for getting your way all the time.

My apologies to those who are of Arabic descent and/or practice Islam in a peaceful, nonviolent way. My comments are not targeted toward you.


But looking at the other side of this argument, I say this:

First of all, don't talk about terrorism before you know what you are talking about. Read some books or something and stop being fooled by stupid american propaganda. The Palestinians are NOT terrorists. What if somebody bombed a hotel here on easter?Wow whoopdie doo, what if you and your family were kicked out of their house and then had to negotiate to get your own ****in house back against an infinitely powerful force that even the U.S. can't regulate any more and your leader that has almost no political weight anyway is arrested and is being held in the West Bank.

The Entifada has been made out to be terrorist forces when in reality the Entifada is a bunch of teenagers and young men fighting with weaponry that Israel should laugh at. All 22 arab states AND the U.S. have agreed that normalized relations with Israel in exchange for all Arab land that was Arab occupied before the war in 1967. The only member who did not agree is Israel, who also happen to have Yassir Arafat, the designated leader of the Palestinian people cooped up in Ramallah. So they want peace but they don't want Arafat to attend the summit? Hmm... yea doesn't make sense to me either. What they really want is the Palestinians to disappear. You know who Manahem Begin is right? He was so close to making peace with Palestine but apparently the Israeli people didn't like that option and opted to elect Banjamin Natanyaho. Here's something you probably never heard, Ariel Sharon among a few other Israeli prime ministers are wanted in Britain for war crimes. That brings me to yet another point, this has turned into strictly American affair. What other countries support the actions in Palestine and none of them care to do anything about it except the big momma country America.


Let me tell you what I think, and you can take it however you want. Israel, among other countries from that region are American pawns protecting American interests in the Middle East. If you think about it, it's almost obvious... Let me speak on the honorable Ariel Sharon now. Ariel Sharon, the caniving bastard, was demoted from minister of defense to minister of housing for a Palestinian massacre in Lebanon a few years back. How the hell is he a prime minister now? Pure corruption.

You people don't know what goes on behind closed doors and I really am sorry that you never got to hear another side of the story. Oh and if I hear that stupid moron bush and his stupid annoying voice one more time talking about how peace can never be had until Arafat controls the "terrorism" I'm gonna flip. Bush is not a president, he is a money maker. The whole Afghanistan campaign was for 2 reasons, to appease the angry american public and so bush can get oil. If you don't believe me, read up. Even General Tommy Franks, the leader of the Afghanistam operation said that this 'war on terrorism' may last more than a lifetime. So what the flying **** did you go there for in the first place! To kill people so everybody here can be happy that we got revenge... No respect for human life, it's disgusting.



How about this, how the hell can you expect Arafat to have total control of the Palestinian people while he is cooped up in Ramallah leading a people that has learned to take orders from nobody. It's so absurd to think that Arafat can tell them what to do, a people that has been opressed for years upon years is not going to stop without some sort of assurance that they will get something in return. The only thing they are getting is pushed down more and more towards the Egyptian and Jordanian borders so that the Israelis can finally get rid of the 'pesky' Palestinians. Oh and as for the 1967 6 day war that was so tragic.

If the Israelis were surprised then they would not have the Gaza Strip, the Sinai, the Golan Heights, Jerusalem, and the West Bank. On top of that, the war in 1973 was Egypt regaining the Sinai and other land that it had lost in 1967.

I don't want to sound like am insulting everybody because I know not everybody is this ignorant but some people unfortunately are. When I see ignorance, especially about an Arab issue I have to speak on it because I take it as my responsibility to know what goes on in other parts of the world. Why do you think the U.S. government tried to block Al Jazeera from being broadcast over satellite TV in the U.S.?, because they told another point of view and it could be dangerous for people to know the freaking truth.


The U.S. even wanted to create their own TV network like Al Jazeera but full of American propaganda and broadcast it in the middle east and target it towards the younger arab generation. That's just not happening, sorry Bush. I have a suggestion for all you uneducated people that I do not wish to talk to any more because it is a waste of time anyway because I'm sure most of you will just criticize me and not even take into account what I am saying.


Read a book called Manufacturing Consent written by Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky. Maybe if you hear about the corruption from the mouths of Jewish people you will believe it. There are 2 Jewish authors educated at Harvard that explain the corruption in the U.S. foreign policy and regulation of the mass media in order to mold events to their advantage. So, enjoy, sorry if I sounded aggravated but it's because I am to a certain degree; hopefully, there will be no flaming.



Again, this is just my opinion.

Thanks

Vent mode OFF

 

[SmashMouth]

Very imformative. I for one am sick of the hole thing. I wonder if our cameras weren't there and, and both sides knew they wouldn't be on the news, if maybe there would be less violence. Kind of how the networks won't show people running on the field at sporting events. Even if this didn't work at least I wouldn't have to hear about every unfortunate murder in that country.
There are alot of contry's with civil unrest and they don't make the news every night.. Why??
I'm not condoning the palastinian cause, but there are two sides to every story, and the American media reports only one. It is absolutely slanted in favor of The israeli's. Is that possibly because the media here has always been heavily jewish? Who knows.

 

[dr. freeze]

Time.....I disagree with about everything you said but don't have time to refute them......lol.....

here are some basic things you gotta realize.....

the Palestinians lost a war.....wars are fought over territory....they were fortunate to have some land to try to peacefully coexist in...

Arafat has done nothing in his tenure to stop terrorism....instead, he has made many remarks which inspired it...

The Koran blantantly says to elminate anyone who doesn't accept its teachings....this is not "extreme" religion of Islam....it is fundamentalist Islam....people need to realize what this religion is about.....it is all in the Koran....trying to water it down and say that Islam is a peaceful religion is nonsense...it is not...it calls for the extinction of all who do not worship Allah.....fortunately, most Islamic people do not follow their religion to this extent.....

There is not much we can do with this problem now. Only thing that can be done is eliminate all the funamentalist groups who adhere to violence and yes even those who make threats of violence....they have been saying this stuff for years while we have just laughed and turned the other way....these people are crazy, they still live in the stone age -- which says a lot of where this religion will get you, and they are so far deranged and their minds are so warped that the only thing we can do is eliminate them before they eliminate us....

 

[SixFive]

Here's the simple deal

Here's the simple deal

These people have fought for thousands of years, and they are going to keep fighting. Nothing is going to change it, that's just how it is. They will never peacefully coexist.

Islam is full of people who have dissent with each other just like Judaism and Christianity. Jews interpret the law in different ways, Christians interpret the Bible and New Testament different ways, and Muslims interpret the Koran different ways.

People like the Al Qaida and Osama bin Laden are a small percentage of Islam. They don't all think like this. If anything, I think they are more traditionalists than Koran followers/scholars.
Only a small minority believe that if they die in a suicide bombing they will be surrounded by a bunch of willing virgins in the afterlife.

 

[djv]

TTM$ 1967 remember it well. Many here not even born then. It was Israel against many. They no better to let to much of that land go. They know what will happen. I also see all the Arab countries side with Iraq. Everyone should leave Iraq alone. Well lets see if that crazy SOB startes shooting at Saudi how long it takes to ask us to save there ass.

 

[TIME TO MAKE $$$]

Dr Freeze, I appreciate your comments as I am always open to an intelligent discussion. LikeI said previously this is just my opinion, not saying I am right or wrong, just my view.

The latest- a terrorist (female with a backpack full of explosives) blew up the front of a supermarket. Luckily, a security guard kept her from going inside with it, or she would have blown up the whole place.

If you ask me they (Palestinians) make things worse for themselves. They take aim at women and children, blowing up malls and birthday parties.. Spineless bastards. Then they turn to the rest of the world and wonder why no one wants to back them.

Israel does dumb stuff too... But blowing up innocents isn't one of them.. You really don't get shot unless you're shooting at them or throwing pieces of concrete...


I just hope Syria and Jordan and all them don't jump in and try to help their fellow terrorists.

It's ridiculous...I don't support nutcases because they're white or because they're Christian. These Arab nations don't want any trouble, but just because these Palestinian suicide bomber nutcases happen to be Arabs/Muslims, they're so ready to stick up for them. Then they wonder why the media give Islam a bad name.

One more thing to take note of. Before the bombing yesterday the peace talks seemed to have been moving smoothly. Well smoother than they had in recent months. It seemed that the Palestinians had a shot at getting back their land pre-1967. However, it is known that Ariel Sharon does not want this. He is very unwilling to give up any land to the Palestinians. It is also known that both Sharon and Hamas want Arafat out of the picture. It has also been said that Hamas may in fact be a tool of the Israeli government being used against the PLO. All of this together could point to something similar to the Lavon Affair.


Also, did anyone hear of the bomb that went off in a Hasidic neighborhood in Brooklyn? At first it was speculated to be by an angry Arab sympathizer, but it is now known to have been a Hasidic Jew with a homemade bomb in his van. Exactly what was he doing with a bomb in his van? One can only speculate.

And on the note of suicide bombings, we can go back to the Oslo Accords. In 1994 there was hope of peace in the Middle East until an Israeli entered a mosque and blew himself up, taking 50 Muslim worshippers with him.

And here's some links about Sharon, and his war criminal background:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=273152

http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/03/07/News/News.44737.html

http://eionews.addr.com/eyeireland.htm

Just to show that he might have had some involvement in that massacre.

And it has been reported that there was/is an Israeli spy ring operating within the U.S, and that on the day of WTC attacks employees at one of the companies involved in this ring received a warning of the attacks. Like I said I'm not saying one side is right or wrong. Simply discussing events and occurrences that have come to light concerning this subject.

Ok, I have to get back to studying, Dr Freeze if you have any questions I will not be able to reply until mid week as I have finals all this week.

Thanks

 

[AR182]

There will never be peace in the world until terrorism is eliminated.Killing innocent people should not be condone,but condemn by the Arab Nations.There has to be an all out effort by all nations to rid the world of terrorism & go after the countries that supply money & weapons to these people.
I am afraid that unless everyone doesn't work together for peace there will be a world war.

 

[rebel]

TTM i think your post was very good.

For me the palestians are freedom fighters.
The bombings is the strongest wepon they have.
So it is no supprice that they use this.
They havent got access to american Apache helis and F-16 and Tanks and bulldozers to put down jewish occupants. If they had i think they would use them.

About terrorism look up The Stern gang , Irgun do some reading on the lavon affair.

Not to forget the attack on USS liberty http://www.ussliberty.org/

Or better try and read some on the Israeli spy ring in the US

here http://www.antiwar.com/orig/dea1.html

the story dissapered quickly from FOX news and is hard to find now.

The jews now how to play the americans they laugh at the US


For me it is easy to understand that you should defend your
country against occupation. If 4 million of any kind came to sweden and occupy it and Killed half my family take our house and put the rest of us in camps for 50 years ,refused to let me see my fathers grave. Made me carry passport in my own country.Constant abuse I would fight them and there supporters


I have the same feeling as you that the American public dont get to see the whole truth of the conflict in middle east since the American media is almost under total Jewish controll.

Dont forget 20 % of palestinians are Christians too

The american goverment has put the people in US in this difficult situation by supporting the Israelis with arms and money(90 billion to this day).http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/010201/0101015.html

 

[Billy]

this could get UGLY..........

 

[HONUS]

Billy, you are right on.

MJ, do this forum a favor and shut this down.

thanks,

 

[dr. freeze]

1. If you think that Americans -- in particular conservative Americans (who most likely are to side with Israel) -- are not wary of media bias, you do not understand us in the least.

2. You have claim to your land. No one else does. Jews claim Palestine historically as does the PLO's.

3. Your characterization of how the Jews treat the Palestinians seems to have a lot of PLO bias and does not resemble reality. They are allowed to peacefully coexist after they lost their lands and are allowed to worship their religion (nonviolently). This is much more freedom than many people get in their OWN countries.....see Iran, Iraq, Red China, North Korea etc. etc.....don't see these people commiting horrendous acts every other day nor do I see anyone other than the U.S. sticking up for these people who really ARE oppressed!

I don't care how one is treated, killing innocent women and children has absolutely ZERO justification.

4. A Jew who kills innocent PLO's will be subject to harsh action undertaken by the Israeli government. If the Jew does it in the name of God, it will be even worse for him because blasphemy is the most serious crime one can do in the Jewish faith....as it is in the Christian faith. In the Middle East, I do not see a whole lot of enforcement of these so-called blasphemous acts mostly because they are not blasphemous -- as the Koran itself orders these acts. Comparing heinous acts committed in the name of God by a so called Christian will render that so called Christian the needle and rapid prosecution. Committing heinous acts in a Middle East country and the PLO prompts leaders to encourage such a thing to their people and further their propaganda but then go out and "condemn" such acts to the rest of the world. Follow their actions and you will see -- how many of these terrorists which run rampant in their countries are actually prosecuted? Yet Middle Eastern countries have the stricktest laws -- and a secret police which outmatches anything which Germany or the Soviets put up. See what happens when one rapes or steals in the Middle East (things get chopped off before they kill you). But when terrorist cells operate, train, carry out attacks, the face is turned the other way????

C'mon!!! Who is being deceived by whose propaganda?????

The bombings is the only defense they had???? Was that their only defense against the U.S.???? Defense against WHAT????? What was happening to them??? Do they not like the fact that we give them aid, spend billions and billions of dollars on them because they sit around on their asses and do absolutely NOTHING but cause problems???? We eradicate disease and care for the world WORLDWIDE and what do they do??? Create disease??? Kill people???? How can anyone in their right mind stick up for these people???

UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!!!

 

[fletcher]

i think this is going to get real ugly and fast,i hope i am wrong.

first of all no-onr take this the wrong way please.

israel shits on the us they take take and take,then laugh at us behind our back,hell this is what sharon has been waiting for just because he wears a suit doesnot make him stable,this guys is a loose cannon and now has what he wants a chance to destroy the palestinians. and i think he will try to go through with this and it could start a major war.

the us has put up covering their ass far to long and i really don't know why.

you hear the muslims are the bad ones and would kill all n.americans and things well i have a couple that live beside me from india very nice and friends,i really hate to talk about things like this but last week he and i spoke about the whole world,and he is around 35-40 ,well he said that with the people blowing themself up and killing in the name of alhja(sp) isnot the true muslim way is you kill yourself he said and stated in the koran that it is not the will of alhja and they are no more muslim then me,they are just sick small group of people that make the whole muslim faith look bad. and i belive him.

all i know is we are already streatched thin on the homefront and have our on problems,we can't fight everybodies wars and need to stop spmetime. like i said not meaning to hurt anyones feelings because i look at people on a person to person thing,but i feel israel and their goverenment use us to suit their needs.

six-five is right they will never get along my question is why do we try so hard to make peace for them,in the long run we will be looked at as the bad bully one way or another.

i hope i am wrong but this is major and on the breaking point.

 

[rebel]

fletcher,very good post.

Why do all think it is going to get ugly?

Can we not discuss with out uglyness.plz

 

[fletcher]

i mean the middle east getting ugly very fast not the post,i think its going to blow very soon and our ass stuck flat in the middle in a no win battle at least for any other country thats not in the middle east.

we need to wake up and worry about n.americans,gb,our friends down under and germany. and the hell with the others because the day is coming where i think there will be a few countries ban together against all of us.

i just wish it would all stop but i am not there so my veiw is flawed.but you think someone would wake up.

and for these people who blow their own ass up whats up with that? i don't care if it was my dad asking me i am not going out like that.

 

[Patternseeker]

why are we the policemen of the world?

with a 19 year old son, i wonder about that. being reared in the sixties, i'm not a big government fan.

this isn't hitler. what are we supposed to do? and God knows, our economy cannot survive without oil, so do we support our spiritual brothers and sacrifice our oil? we won't do that, although we'll never say it.

"a working class hero is something to be. but you're still f uckin
peasants as far as i can see" Lennon

 

[dr. freeze]

these people have fought with each other since their existence and it would be in our best interest to just absolutely stay away if it weren't for oil......it is so unfortunate that a majority of the worlds supply is in the hands or near the country of a madman......

thankfully most muslims are peaceful -- the muslims in our country are more peaceful than the average american -- but would like to see more of an effort to police themselves and put an end to this nonsense over there instead of propagating it....

 

[rebel]

Dr.frezze

i agree with you that bombing civilians is wrong.

But i think you missunderstood my post(maybe my english isnt clear).
I mearly wanted to point out the diffrence in military power between PA and Israel. PA dont have MerkavaTanks, F-16 Apache , Nukes and cemicals like the Israelis.

But in this conflict both sides kill civilians.

You cant say that Israelis dont kill civilians soo your ZERO justifacation goes for both sides.

The problem for US is that the bullets are paid for by US taxpayers.

And i dont think the Palestinians in the refuge camps live a happy life. You say they are not oppressed i disagree.

I like Americans alot and it saddens my heart that the Goverment of the USA dont seem to like the people of USA.

I have friends that where in Bosnia with swedish army(UNForce) and i have been told that on many occations those people there (Serbs and Bosnians) turned there guns on there own to get more support thru media.

Soo perhaps we should not think all "suicide bombs" are from where we are supposed to belive.

It seem they appear at very bad timing for PA.

why would they do that?

Also Sweden has sent its best commandos to Afganistan and we where in gulf war too (My naighbor has terrible skin problems and other problems from that one)

Soo we are fighting for Israel too.

Before people had no reason bombing in Sweden but now who knows?

As patternseeker said

Why should US be every where with the Army

stay home and protect US cut off aid to Israel and no one have a grudge to US. That is what i belive. his son is 19 shall he sacrifice him for the Israelis.

I think most people in the world love americans i know i doo

but the foreign politics suck

I have 3 sons 11 years 5.5 an 4 years i dont what to send them fighting in Irak i want them here playing football and hockey

And the things that Irak has been punished for doing Israel is doing the same with noting happening to them

Invading land

occupying land

Killing civilians

Making nuclear and cemical weapons

Thretening to use these weapons

As other posters have said already think of USA first dont bring trouble with this politics

and why would Saddam not sell oil to USA he likes dollars to. And hes not a muslim fundamentalist OK


Take care my brothers

Peter

 

[dr. freeze]

a lot of our support of Israel comes from our Christian tradition....in the Christian faith God promises that He will bless those who bless thee and curse those who curse thee in reference to Israel....

Many Christians take this as saying that our blessings come from God and are in part due to our support of Israel, where the Christian faith recognizes the Jews as God's chose people.....

Since America is becoming more and more secular, and since it doesn't make much "sense" as you say to defend Israel -- and it doesn't I admit -- we will become more inclined to just let them be....

In our history though, we have been blessed properity wise as no other country has ever been blessed -- if you believe this is in part due to God's promise or if you don't, the facts bear witness.....I personally have a strong faith and think it woudl be very dangerous to step away from giving them our support....

Israel doesn't do terrorist acts to the Palestines though.....they prosecute anyone who does kill civilians....maybe a few isolated incidents in the past have happened, but as of now, they do not tolerate violence against people of Jewish or Arab descent...

Another reason we support them is because if they had no support, they would be run into the ground as they were in the 40's in Germany only by the Palestines. They are our allies, and I would rather be loyal big brother than one who backs away because we are tired of sticking up for our little brother. That is loyalty. Israel is a democracy and promotes western civilization and our values. We protect those things. The world is not a small place anymore.

Yes the Israelis have big weapons. Usually better weapons are a deterrant and you do not mess with someone who is bigger than you are. For some reason, that doesn't register with the Palestinians. They are crazy. They live just like any other country in the middle east -- backwards. To what degree are these people oppressed? They have more freedom to live in peace and harmony with the Israelis than any other country in the middle east. Israel, in fact, is the only country that will even let them live in their country!!! I don't see the other Arab nations reaching out to them! They are not oppressed. They are free to worship peacefully, and live their lives as they wish. They lost a war, and in most wars throughout history -- if you lost, you were made slaves to the country you lost to, or you were simply exterminated. The Israelis have tried to peacefully coexist with these inbreds but that has proved impossible.

A "conspiracy theory" glance at this should always be taken. But these Arabs are so idiotic and if you just watch them in the streets you can tell that the "average Mohammed" is not trying to win any propaganda war. These inner circle terrorist groups are all over the world and even have cells in our country. They are like fighting the kamikaze fighter from Japan. There is little you can do. They caught a teenage Palestinian GIRL at a supermarket today -- she ONLY killed 2 people. You tell me how you can get Israeli's to influence Palestinians to do this so that they can win a propaganda battle -- and sacrifice their own people. It just doesn't add up. The Serbs are a different story. Those people were crazy too. Israel just is not that way. They are content to live with these people --- if the Palestinians are peaceful -- and have demonstrated that. Arafat has publicly called for a million suicide bombers in Israel -- publicly!! They do not keep their message sectret.....they are so far deceived that they think war is what they live for....and there is nothing you can do but to elminate that mentality.....

 

[dr. freeze]

Saddam is not a muslim fundamentalist????

this guy has slaughtered thousands upon thousands of his own people!!!

 

[SmashMouth]

"Inbreds" "Backward"
It is obvious by calling the palistinians names that you are extremely biased, and maybe you have a right to be. Again, I don't condone any attacks on civillians and I detest these suicide bombings, but at the same time I can understand there cause. I feel both sides are very much at fault. Again we are only encouraged to see the Palastinians at fault.