Isreal VS Arafat

[rebel]

Im not anti-semite because the palestinian are semite people too.

the only Anti i am is anti -WAR and occupation. I dont hate any people i just try to show that there is more to this than maybe mainstream media whants to tell.

from this article

Jews and Palestinians in the Middle East share a very similar gene pool and must be considered closely related and not genetically separate, the authors state. Rivalry between the two races is therefore based 'in cultural and religious, but not in genetic differences', they conclude.

In doing so, the team's research challenges claims that Jews are a special, chosen people and that Judaism can only be inherited.

The reaserch was later pulled from this journal


read about the genes of Palestine and Jews here.
http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,605798,00.html


Freeze you and i have the same goal that is peace.

I just whant you to understand that the US goverment can not be a credible partner in peace negotiations as long as they support only one side.

I think that PA feel they can't trust any deals made as long as US stand behind Israel .

I think you know what i am trying to say.

And like fletcher said this money is needed in other issues.

Think about what 3 billion a year could too for fighting AIDS world wide.

take care

u got some Baseball picks for me today, brother

 

[ryson]

As one of the previous posters stated "things are going to get ugly"..........<sigh>

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/020401/1/2nb6z.html

 

[AR182]

I didn't really want to get involved on this topic more than what I have previously posted.Rebel,Dr.Freeze stated that it sounds like you are making some anti-semetic statements.You replied that you are not anti-semetic,but anti-war.A couple of comments:

Everyone knows that people don't always get everything they want when they negotiate.Yet at at the Camp David meeting,when Clinton was president,Israel offered Arafat 97% of what he was asking.That generous offer was refused by Arafat.This was the start of The US-Arafat relationship falling apart.Previously Arafat assured Clinton that he was looking for a peace agreement.But he was offered almost everything he was looking for & still refused the offer.Now I don't expect you or me to know the real reason this offer was rejected,but maybe you can tell me what you think.

When Anthony Zinni,US peace envoy,arrived in the Middle East,Israel halted their military action.The Paletinian extremists set off 5 suicide bombings in a row.One of these bombings killed innocent people getting together to have a holidy dinner.This was when Israel started their present offensive attacks.What was Israel supposed to do?Their is an outcry of what Israel is doing to Arafat.But how come their was no outrage,other than the US,to this action?European leaders called Sharon up to make sure that Arafat will not be harmed.But they said nothing about all the innocent people dying in the terrorists bombings.I wonder if they would have said something if it was reversed,if Israel slaughtered people who were worshipping their religion?I think we all know the answer to that.

Most of the the other Arab countries don't like Arafat.That is why they didnot let him address the Arab nations at the recent summit.Upon learning that these nations approved the Saudi peace plan,the Palestinian militants stated they will not honor it.They want to drive Israel into the sea.Finally we have the answer.These militants don't want Israel to exist that is why there is no peace.They would not accept any peace offering because they don't want peace.Terrorists want chaos.That is how they thrive.

In a previous post you stated that most of the American media is controlled by jews.Don't know about that,you may be right.i do know that probably the biggest media corp. in the US is owned by Rupert Murdock,who is an Aussie.He is the biggest supporter of Israel that I have seen.Maybe you can do some research on this.What the % owned by Jews,how many owned by Catholics,how many owned by Methodists.You get the idea.

Rebel are you anti-semetic?I think Dr.Freeze pinned you out correctly.You are anti-semetic & that makes me sick.

Lastly i don;t know why people don't see this as crisis.

The Militant extremists want to end our way of life.They teach their children to hate everything about us & our ways.I agree with SixFive that these extremists are in the minority & that the vast majority want peace.

Sorry for the ramble,just wanted to say my piece.

Peace.

 

[Myron]

Patternmaker you asked why the U.S. are the policemen of the world. They aren't, but they are the ones that announced that they were going to wipe out terrorism because as September 11 proved terrorism is the one true threat to democracy around the world.

For those condemning Israel just think back to 9-11, to the U.S. being dragged through the streets of Somalia, to the bombing of the U.S. embassy etc. and ask yourself
"Who was responsible for this"? In each case it was Muslim terrorists. These Muslim fundamentalists have no regard for life and are only too happy to kill themselves provided they take Jews or Americans with them. Israel is putting up with suicide bombing after suicide bombing that are not targetting Israeli officials but rather innocent citizens.

How would you feel if you couldn't go to a restaurant on Saturday night for fear that some maniac was going to blow the place up. If this happened day in and day out would you not go crazy if your government did nothing to try and resolve the situation?:nono:

 

[Jhpga]

Myron,
I agree totally.The Muslims are not only fighting the US but the jews in Israel,and the hindus in India.It seems to me the Muslism have problems with any religion that isnt there own.What kind of messed up faith tells you to fly an airplane into 2 buildings and kill 4,000 innocent people who you never met.Or tells you to strap a bomb on you and walk in a restaurant and blow it up.And they continue to suicide bomb everyday.Just imagine if this was happening in Los Angeles,New York,or anywhere in the US.We would be bombing the hell out of them.And rightfully so.Im just glad I live in America.So to all Muslism terroist who kill innocent people in the name of Allah:thefinger

 

[rebel]

AR182

No im not anti-semite.

My older brother was at univ in cali 79-83.
Hes best roommate was a jew from Iran and i stayed with him my first time in USA 1984. My father is one of the best in a special tech area he's got business friends going back 40 years in Israel. My family whent many times to Israel.

So dont accuse me of being a liar when i clearly posted before i dont hate any person

Like some people here seem to do

I hate politics of oppression anywhere... in Zimbawe in China in Palestine in North Korea

it is Freeze who whats to slaghter people and call names

I have never called Jews bad names ...............have I.


Freeze said lets exterminate the arabs before they get us westeners.

That is anti semitic

Have i said: you can't reason with jews lets kill them before they kill us.

AR182 you and freeze are anti-semitic do you understand that?

I have said all along that the support for Israel have and is hurting the USA and people of US

You should appoligise to Me

But if speaking the truth about that Jews had a major part in communism and the suffering of EU people is anti-semitic then you make me sick too.

some info about semitic i freely translate from swedish

maybe there are some english links you can look for yourself

The main language in the semetic language group is accadic,armenic,arabic and etiopic.The term semitic comes from the 1 mosebook 10 (the family tree)and has been commonly accepted as the term for this languagegroup since 1781 by A.L Schl?ser.


The term semitic has therefore noting to do with Nationality,race or religion


It is the languagegroup of the middle east region OK!!!!!!!

Myron ask who is resposible for the attacks on americans?

The perps are muslim and the reason is

It is the support of Israeli occupation that brings this on US people is that soo hard too see

USA is not the only Democracy in the world you now

and there havent been any attacks on other western democratys ambassys and houses by muslims

because they dont suport only one side i this conflict

But this may change i am affraid, if we in the west attac Iraq again for Israel.

Myron i would feel really bad if i got bombed at a cafe but if the reason was that i occupy Finland and rape, murder and demolish there with my tax dollar i would understand the reason for some one bombing


Striking in this is the Sharons goverment has not even considered the Saudi peace plan that even arch rival Syria have Okeyd

Wish offers that what all sencibel Israeli leaders has been working and hoping for in 35 years.

Peace, recognition and normal relations with Arab nations in exchange for the areas occupied in 1967.

Sharon has other goals then Peace for the region


The goal is to forever colonice the palestinian territoys and drive the palestinians away from West bank and Gaza .

Sharon and his thugs (mostly East eu and russina jews) have never accepted and will never willingly accept a palestine state next to Israel.

Sharon demands revenge he wants his own "justice" He enjoys seeing any Palestiian suffer and in pain.

The only thing he regrets is the murder he hasn't yet commited.

Killing Arrafat.

Sharon is a criminal responsibel for the massacres of the refuge camps Sab-ra and Shatila in Lebanon.


I want to say thanks to the people(lurkers) who have e-mail me and given there support

Peace

Peter

 

[TIME TO MAKE $$$]

People, People, People. Sharon is no saint. Neither is Arafat. Remember, Arafat was talking peace and having a ship full of weapons come in from Iran. Sharon was linked to the massacares. Personally, I'd like to see the both of them in a fight to the death like in Thunderdrome. "Two men enter and one walks out". If Sharon wins, Palestine has to move. If Arafat wins, Isreal moves.

On a more serious note...It's a shame what's going on over there. I just heard on the news a little while ago that Israel has officially declared Arafat an enemy. It's ridiculous that in this day an age something like this which could easily end up as a major war in the middle east or even a world war III (a tidbit of info - nastradmus predicted that world war III would be centered in the Middle East). Oh well, those books that I mentioned are really good reading, the type of books that you can read in a few days and draw you in so if you want to learn more about the subject I suggest checking them out.



FYI: It was the arab nations, not the jews, who took away the Palestinian land after it was distributed to them by the united nations.
This is simply a long property dispute disguised under a veil of religious choice with so many people killed over the years that nobody can keep score and everybody wants the last war. A tragic display of a lack of tolerance and respect by all sides, who in my limited opinion are all to blame by perpetuating the violence.

BTW: The difference between a tragic defeat and a massacre is whose side you were on.

Lets keep this civil. Small minds sink below the level of civilized discussion.

Thanks

 

[TIME TO MAKE $$$]

Forgot to mention it's good to see that members are level headed enough to conduct a rational debate with people that have diverging viewpoints. When it comes to the situation in Israel, I often compare the scenario to the plight of the American Indian.

"We" displaced the Indians from their land - murdered their men, raped their women, razed their villages, etc. This was wrong. Similarly, the Palestinians have been displaced and have endured numerous atrocities over the last few decades. Most people - myself included - would argue that the Palestinians have been done wrong.

But this is what it is - history. The battles were fought, the land was lost, superior and invincible (to the other side) forces now occupy the land.

One could argue that the Indians have every right to take back what was wrongfully taken from them. But, like the Palestinians, they face superior forces (U.S. military) that they truly have no chance of defeating.

So what should they do? Would Americans stand up for and defend Indian suicide bombers - as some defend the Palestinians - if they started detonating bombs at major sporting events? After all, they would simply be using whatever means are at their disposal to "combat" superior forces, forces that occupy "their" land.

These are by no means parallel situations - but I think the general idea is sound.


Thoughts?

:toast: to all for a great discusion

I am completing my 2nd year of law school, but I have decided to return to graduate school to complete my thesis and receive a B.A. Honours Degree in Political Science. My thesis subject will be on this conflict, and I hope to have a solution plan that hopefully will be forwarded to the United Nations.

 

[dr. freeze]

good luck Time!!!!

fwiw.....you can imagine what i think of the UN though.....lol....

good luck on all your tests this week....i have mine too....need to do well.....

 

[TIME TO MAKE $$$]

Freeze,

Wanted to wish you success on your exams as well.

Go get em!!!!

 

[selkirk]

not going to argue with on the middle east. just a few points.

1. will never be the start of WW3. simple reason name me one arab country that is willing to send troops in to fight. none, Syria, Iran,Iraq,Saudia Arabia, Egypt.

2. they will not even get an oil embargo going because it would cost them money.

3. Israel are building new settlements which the palenstines have a vaild concern about.

4. Israel has to do something to stop these bombings, Arafat has not done anything but lip service, maybe he does not have any power, but groups he is associated with have had some connections with some bombings.

5. Israel has spied on the US, so what they have also destroyed a nuclear reactor that Iraq wanted to build, would you like to have Iraq a nuclear power? they usually retaliate when attacked and even have a secret service that kills people that harm them. What did the CIA do when the sailors got killed in Yemen, nothing, the US did nothing except firing cruise missiles in the desert with hardly any damage. oh forgot they put OBL on a wanted poster, there is a sign of resolve.

6. the US will never have enough oil, they will always need to rely on imports not so bad, countries involved rely of US $.

7. OBL proved how useless the CIA was, by the way have they done anything to get the people who supplied the money, much of which came from Saudia Arabia, no.

thanks
selkirk

 

[nighthorse]

Israel treats Palestinians better than any Arab country does. Palestian standards of living are highest inside of Israel. It's the only country where they can vote.

If they don't have great medical care, why don't the oil rich bretheren help them out?

Israel is the only country in the region we can count on. I'm fed up with the plight of the "poor Palestinian people" We're saving their asses right now by holding Israel down.....I say we let them go. Israel could clean up this latest terror problem inside of a month.

The Europeons always side with the Arabs, nuff said........

 

[fatdaddycool]

very interesting topic and a lot of good views and intelligent points by all. One thing though, keep in mind, especially when talking about others like the American Indian. War, pillaging, raping of women was not invented by European colonists looking to occupy the Americas. Tha apache, commanche, chippewa, choctaw, crow, flatheads, all were warring nations hundreds of years before we came along. The spoils of war are exactly that. But I commend you all on well spoken well thought out diatribe.

 

[rebel]

Nighthore wrote

"Israel is the only country in the region we can count on "

to take ALL our money LOL


"Israel treats Palestinians better than any Arab country does."

What Arab country rape and kill palestinians and bulldoze there homes and keep them in camps?

Pleace educate me on this!!!!!!


"Palestian standards of living are highest inside of Israel."

This is true , but they are subject to economic and social discrimination, which was recognized last July by the Israeli supreme court.

But if it is that good being palestine in Israel why dont all palesinias move in to Israel.......... they cant......................


"It's the only country where they can vote."

I think Palestinian would prefer to vote in there own state

"If they don't have great medical care, why don't the oil rich bretheren help them out?"

why should they travel abroad for medical help?

Or are you thinking of the ambulances that are not let thru to wounded by Israelis

"Europeans always side with arabs"

It is amuzing to see many of the recent posters look at Israel as this tuff nation yeah kill all ask question later LOL

like we look at our own favorit tuff football team

Selkirk

I woulden't want the Iraqis to bomb the dimona reactor and i dont see any problem with iraq building a Power plant.


some info on Dimona power plant


Israel's Dimona reactor, south of Hebron, is about 60 kilometres west of Karak across the Jordan Valley.

It was built over 40 years ago and is capable of producing weapons-grade plutonium. Press reports have said that Israel has built between 100 and 200 nuclear warheads at Dimona.

more about nuclear weapons from this jewish site

http://www.jewishpost.com/jp0606/jpn0606h.htm

I guess you are affriad that Iraq this way would build nuclear weapons and nuke you, but dont you think it is easyer to just buy ready warheads from a former Soviet country.

Maybe he doesnt want his people to live in darkenes and bee "backwards" "Inbreed"

When Saddam fired scuds, none of them where loaded with any gas or germs in the Gulf war

if he really is that crazy why dident he go for it

all cemical and nuclear damage came from the US weapons

The US Gov soiled Iraq with nuclear waste from Uranium loaded ammo.

Even letting Alied soldiers camp in this shit for up to two months with out a single word of warning.

Now many veterans are seriously ill in the US because of this.

Gettig deformed babies

Makes me wanna puke.... threating its finest men and woman like this

Talk about killing thousands of its own people...sick

You all have heard of Agent Orange i think.

The US Gov have decived you people many times before in history but suddenly anythig comming from WH is the gods truth.

Common people gimmie a break tell me you are not that easy.


and finaly some sports news

I took Manchester United +220 SuperBig tonight

WON 2-0 away to Deportivo

and surfing their web site i found this nice story of Christian Palestine pro soccer club in Chile

http://dev.manutd.com/newsreuters/fullstory.sps?irchid=OLWWSOC&irnid=OUKSS-MIDEAST-CHILE_txt.html

This is realy taking up alot of time

i forgot to bet the Dodgersl early game well not early here it is 11 .15 PM at nite that is.

so i dont know if i will post anymore i have said very much what i think

And i like to Thank Jack for the oppertunity to express my opinion and fellow posters at this GREAT FORUM for keeping this going for soo long with little aggro and lets hope we all can get peace with out too many dead but im affraid it is going to get worse before it gets better

If you need my attension Jack has my mail dont hessitate OK


Peace

Peter

 

[dr. freeze]

your worldview is so skewed....you would think after listening to you that the US government is worse than Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Ladin, and Momar Quadafi put together....

we fight for freedom, bailed Europes ass out of many problems. If it weren't for us, you Europeans would be all singing Hail to Stalin, the Nazi Fight song, or having a tea party with Mussolini.
Soon you will all be bowing to Allah, and sending your civilization to the toilet if the Muslim extremists have their way. The only nation out of all of ya'll that has shown the slightest bit of resiliency is the British -- thank God for Churchill and Thatcher.....

It just goes to show you that the Arab people are so warped that we can help Bin Ladin, or Hussein defend their country against evil regimes and what do they do when they get in power? The same ol sh+t. These people are crazy and you can't do much with them. Terrorism needs to be eliminated from the face of the earth period. These people do not understand the concept of peace. They want to destroy all the non Muslims just as Hitler wanted to destroy all the non Arians. You can either sleep, as you Europeans did and let the evil grow, or you can eliminate it before it gets out of hand. Take your pick. You have absolutely no concept of world history. These people are going to be fighting and terrorizing or dead. Pick one or the other. Either they shoot us, or we shoot them before they have the chance. That might seem a little harsh, but it is realization. We do not live in a utopian peaceful world. We have evil prevalent. And the terrorists are evil. The ONLY reason that Israel has not been overrun is that they have Nukes and so do we. Hussein knew that if he used chemicals, his skin would be melted in less than a day. That is the purpose of our Nukes. They tend to deter attacks like Pearl Harbor and the WTC trade center bombing. Well, the deter attacks from sane people. If Hussein gets his hand on a ICM Nuke, he is crazy enough to push the button just because he disagrees with freedom in general.

If you Euro's like the Arab way of life so much and defend it so much, take your pick of a country and go live there for a while and see how fun it is. It is a disaster. These people have nothing ebtter to do than sit around and throw rocks all day. They are still in the stone age. The people that they have in leadership do nothing but encourage the violent, stone age, way of life. They must be eliminated.

The Israelis DO treat the Palestinians like KINGS compared to how the rest of the Arab's treat them. Throughout history, when you conquer a land, you either make slaves of the people or you kill them all. Israel did neither and instead allowed the PLO's the opportunity to live in peace. Many of the PLO's do not accept this generous invitation. Instead they insist on terror. Thus, they must take responsibility for this choice and spend the rest of their lives in camps or prisons in Israel or maybe if they decide to attack the US, they can go spend some time in a little cage in Guatamino Bay at camp X-Ray. The American Indians in the U.S. made the choice a little over a hundred years ago to live in the peace with the US. It has been a long process, and we have done some things IMO to keep them from succeeding in the American way of life, but the opportunity for them to enjoy freedom and peace and our way of life is there. And many take advantage of it. We allow them to worship in their own way, and continue all their traditions in peace. And each tribe is allowed the opportunity to govern itself. The PLO's have the same opportunity but instead choose to terrorize. They fail to realize how blessed they are, for Israel allowing them to even exist after they were conquered.

All this stuff that you insinuate about the US and Isreal gov't is such a spin and load of misinformation that you have received from Arab propaganda. Seems like everyone thinks that both gov't know exactly what is going ot happen or what did happen before they did. The gov't knew about the terrorists before it happened, the govt knew about Gulf war syndrome, the gov't knew that Saddam would turn his back on us after we helped him fight off Iran, the gov't knew that Bin Ladin would go crazy after we helped him.....the list goes on....lots of unexpected things happen because many people are evil in this world and their minds are so warped that we can't even try to imagine what will happen next....

 

[nighthorse]

"Palestian standards of living are highest inside of Israel."

This is true , but they are subject to economic and social discrimination, which was recognized last July by the Israeli supreme court. "It's the only country where they can vote."

I think Palestinian would prefer to vote in there own state.

"If they don't have great medical care, why don't the oil rich bretheren help them out?"

why should they travel abroad for medical help?

I try to make distinctions between Palestinians living inside Israel proper and those in the territories.

1. Palestianians are treated to the same discrimination and worse in other Arab countries. That's pretty much accepted fact.

2. If they had their own country, you can bet they wouldn't even have the right to vote (maybe Soviet style...."Arafat received 99.86% of the vote in today's election!")

3. These rich states could take these people in, our they could establish hospitals in the territories themselves. (What's the point? Once you blow yourself up, it's hard for any doctors to put you back together). As for ambulances, the Israelis last week stopped a Red Cresent ambulance with explosives aboard. Perhaps one reason ambulances have trouble getting through.

Bottom line is the Palestinians were handed an incredible deal by Barak and they refused. They don't want peace....

4. Were you originally from France?? or are you a Brussells Eurocrat? This sounds a lot like the crap these idiots spew. I hope you enjoy the view up north in your Socialist utopia.......I hate to sound hateful, but I can't stand all this Israel is awful and the poor 'ol Palestianians are wonderful people. The leadership in Palestine is made up of a lot manipulative, evil people who want Israel wiped off the map....until the current leadership is eliminated and Palestinians who really want peace all allowed to step forward....I say screw 'em.

 

[rebel]

YEAH YOU GUYS ARE RIGHT LETS KILL ALL OF THE UNGREATFUL STONESTROWINGBACKWARDSINBREEDSOCIALISTDARKIETERRORISTBASTARDS

 

[nighthorse]

rebel

rebel

Now you're startin to make some sense

 

[Rorschach]

When it comes to the situation in Israel, I often compare the scenario to the plight of the American Indian.

"We" displaced the Indians from their land - murdered their men, raped their women, razed their villages, etc. This was wrong. Similarly, the Palestinians have been displaced and have endured numerous atrocities over the last few decades. Most people - myself included - would argue that the Palestinians have been done wrong.


One could argue that the Indians have every right to take back what was wrongfully taken from them. But, like the Palestinians, they face superior forces (U.S. military) that they truly have no chance of defeating.

So what should they do? Would Americans stand up for and defend Indian suicide bombers - as some defend the Palestinians - if they started detonating bombs at major sporting events? After all, they would simply be using whatever means are at their disposal to "combat" superior forces, forces that occupy "their" land.

These are by no means parallel situations - but I think the general idea is sound.

Thoughts?

Free Arafat...Free Peltier...

THAT'S IT!!! We could set up the Palestinians with Indian Bingo parlors and casinos and they could take all the Israeli money!!

Sorry, couldn't resist a bit of levity...



Seriously, though, this is a strong parallel conceptually. The AIM movement in the '70s attempted to make a stand, but they faced the overwhelming force of the US gov't.

Religion is involved: The US needed to create laws in the early '60s to protect Indian children from being taken by "white families" (basically missionaries such as the Mormons, etc....) and raised without benefit of knowing their religion, culture and history.

Oil is involved: The US government pays Native American families for oil rights (which apparently are delayed often, causing families relying on that as income severe hardship.)

Native Americans remain the invisible minority.

But there are probably a few differences...such as space. There is much more room on the reservations than in a tiny, compact corner of an area of the Middle East.

Hated to have one of my initial posts in this forum be an off-topic off-topic ramble, but just felt inspired by this thread and hope this adds something to the debate. BTW, I've been amazed by the lack of flames in such a hot topic.

 

[nighthorse]

It's funny you should mention that, Palestinian buisnessmen, with the help of outside capital, had plans and had actually began construction on a large casino in the territories....then the latest intifada began a couple of years ago.