Isreal VS Arafat

[AR182]

It really is unbelievable that some people don't think 9\11 happened.I guess I will tell my 3 friends,1 who actually saw the 1st plane hit the tower,that it didn't happend.Maybe they had 1960's flashback(when drugs were around).

They were critical of how the detainees were being treated in Gitmo,without even seeing it first hand.But I didnot hear their outcry about how the Wall Street reporter was butchered.They decapitated him.
They are not cooperating with the US in the Moussai case(spelling?),the 20th highjacker from 9\11.

Just when my dislike for the french keeps growing,this moron writer fuels it even more.

I know a few people,who live in NY & here,will not step foot in Europe until their attitude changes.Hopefully other people will do the same.

 

[djv]

There is a fast way to end the Jew//Palestinian problem. Look the other way. Been going on so long now does anyone believe it ever stops. One side or the other just feeds off the BS or news that they get from around the world. Maybe no one should pay attention any longer.

 

[Myron]

Only problem with that DJV is that you do so and then someone flies a plane into your building or blows themselves up in your supermarkets. The U.S. avoided getting involved and they killed 3,000 innocent Americans. George Bush issued the war on terrorism because he knows that the terrorists ultimate goal is the destruction of Israel AND America. The Islamic World has a saying
"First the Saturday people and then the Sunday people."

 

[Nolan Dalla]

Against my better judgment, I can't let this one pass:

Only problem with that DJV is that you do so and then someone flies a plane into your building or blows themselves up in your supermarkets. The U.S. avoided getting involved and they killed 3,000 innocent Americans.

REPLY: The US "avoided getting involved?" You mean like when we give Israel between $4 to $6 billion (with a "B") every single year for the last 30 years? That's OUR money. You mean not getting involved by giving Israel billions in economic aid, miltary aid, sharing intelligence, sending envoy after envoy to the region year after year -- is that why you mean by the US not "getting involved" in the dispute? The cold facts is -- the US has been directly involved since Day One in 1948. AND THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM. Frankly, DJV is right -- the US has absolutely no business and NOTHING to gain in the region by involving itself politically or militarily. In fact, I take the OPPOSITE view that we have a helluva lot more TO GAIN by befriending Arab nations in the region. 290 million Arabs with oil versus 10 million Isrealis with nothing but headaches? Do the math. This one should be a no brainer. Most Arab nations (even Iran) desperately want closer ties to the US. We NEED Arab support when we eventualy go to war with Saddam Hussien in Iraq (which is probasbly inevitable). We are WASTING valuable capital and credibility in a cause that is wrong and probably doomed to failure. This one-sided support of Israel is driving a wedge between those relation that may take decades to repair. In fact, it could lead to WW3.


George Bush issued the war on terrorism because he knows that the terrorists ultimate goal is the destruction of Israel AND America.

REPLY: This is way too oversimplistic. Most people turn to terrorism because they have run out of options. It's that simple. That even happens in this country. People riot and kill when they feel hopelessness. And just for the record -- the ultimate goal of the terrorists varies from person to person and group to group. Some want Isael destroyed. Others want the US completely out of the region. Others want to cease the influence of the so-called decadent West on their culture. Honestly, when I see pictures of Pizza Hut and McDonalds next to Mosques, I can't say I blame them. Importing Brittany Speers Cds to corrupt the minds of youngsters is enough to make anyone rush to join the Taliban (half-joking). Imagine you are a Muslim cleric and you see this influence coming in year after year. I suspect you might take some drastic measures. As to the Palestenians -- they essentially now live in conditions that mirror the Warsaw Ghetto. Just as Jews started an uprising in 1943, these oppressed people are going to turn to some horrific measures because they HAVE NO OTHER OPTIONS.


have no The Islamic World has a saying
"First the Saturday people and then the Sunday people."

REPLY: Total nonsense. This statement does NOT represent the views of the majority of Mulsims -- and, you know it. "The Islamic World has a saying?" I'd sure like to see that quote. What if I were to start quoting Mier Kahane or some other Zionist fantatic and say he speaks for all Jews? At least have the decency to admit that there are varied opinions and levels of hate on BOTH sides of this conflict.

By the way, a question Myron -- do you consider yourself an "American" first, or an Israeli first (I presume you are Jewish -- and if not, then please disregard the question).


-- Nolan Dalla

 

[Nolan Dalla]

Myron:

Just so you understand, or don't misunderstand the above question -- allow me to clarify. The reason I ask is that if indeed you PRIORITIZE Israel's interests above the United States, then I can understand your commitment to Israel over Palestine. I do not agree with your position, but I do believe you can make a logical argument based on Israeli concerns. I have several Jewish freinds and this issue has come up many times.

However, note that I speak as an American. Other than attaining a broader understanding of the conflict and trying to learn more about the cultural differences and attitudes that add fuel to the fire -- my MAIN INTEREST is in what is best for the United States. That's it. We could argue all day and all night about moral, ethics, history, intentions, and so forth, but it all boils down to make a case for the cause you want to support.

My position, in case it's not clear already, is that the USA has a lot more to gain by not pissing off 300 million Muslims and making an enemy out of the entire Middle Eastern region than by anything that could come out of supporting a tiny nation that produces absolutely nothing of value to the USA. It would be like supporting Rwanda and disreagarding the entire continent of Africa. Any statesman who advocated such a position in global politics would be commited to a mental institution. But that's PRECISELY what we, the USA, are doing in the Middle East. Supporting a nation that causes nothing but trouble for us, bleeds us of money and international credibility, and generally makes things unstable for all peoples of the world.

While it might be justfyable to support your own people (if you are Israeli), as an American I think it's an impossible case to make that Israel is of greater benefit to US interests than 300 million Arabs, and a ceaseless supply of oil for years to come (1973 Arab Oli embargo, and arguably 1970s economic disaster was caused in large part by the Isreali 1973 conflict).

If you want to make a case that it is in the USA's interest to support this nation, to the peril of all we have to gain elsewhere in the region, then I'd sure like to hear you make a case.

-- Nolan Dalla

 

[rebel]

THANKS NOLAN

 

[TIME TO MAKE $$$]

Give credit where it is due, Nolan makes some great points in his reply.

Nolan, would you mind if I used some of the points you made in my thesis research?

Your name will be cited as a reference source, all I need to know is if you reside in Las Vegas?

I will be conducting my research next year and will have it forwarded to the United Nations as my thesis supervisor's brother works for the UN.

Though I doubt it, I will try to make a difference. My thesis will be a solution to this long lived conflict.


Thanks

 

[dr. freeze]

if there was 1 pro-democratic person and 15 billion terrorists, we would defend the pro-democratic person....

again, if you are a Christian, and believe that God's promises are still indeed relevant for today, than you will think that the US has much to gain to defend Israel......and lots to lose if we stop.....

 

[selkirk]

Nolan dont hold back

Nolan dont hold back

My position, in case it's not clear already, is that the USA has a lot more to gain by not pissing off 300 million Muslims and making an enemy out of the entire Middle Eastern region than by anything that could come out of supporting a tiny nation that produces absolutely nothing of value to the USA. It would be like supporting Rwanda and disreagarding the entire continent of Africa. Any statesman who advocated such a position in global politics would be commited to a mental institution. But that's PRECISELY what we, the USA, are doing in the Middle East. Supporting a nation that causes nothing but trouble for us, bleeds us of money and international credibility, and generally makes things unstable for all peoples of the world.


I guess then the US should back nations that want to send sixteen year old kids into supermarkets with bombs strapped on them. I mean in Israel you have some debate between the people are for and against the war, and debate on a political level. A society that has freedom of the press (show me one arab country that you want to make friends with that is a democracy and has a free press, to write whatever they want.)
not egypt, syria, Saudia Arabia, Iraq, Iran.

Nolan if you turned your back on Israel to support non democratic states that funded the Taliban, I still believe Israel survives. perphaps you should take up a job as a European Union diplomat, that is basically their view of Israel.

by the way since if you were in charge of US foreign policy 1. you would turn your back on an ally
2. keep to within your borders, that really worked well in Afganistan, well........
3. Would you also pull out of Saudia Arabia, I mean half of the Royal family there want you out, and some members probably funded the Taliban.


Nolan I believe Israel has the right to exist, I am sorry you do not. By the way it does not matter if the US supports them, they have won other wars against superior odds.

One more question Nolan, do you think if the Taliban and OSB killed 10-20 Israel soldiers or blew up two embassies what do you think Mossad would do, I mean besides making up wanted posters?

Of coarse we know the US lead investigator of the Yemen bombing was pulled off the case apperently he was causing a diplomatic incident, he was going after the people who funded the operation. The US wanted to make sure they did not offend their allies especially if the money came from some members in Saudia Arabia. By the way he left the US government and took up a new job as head of security for the WTC, his first day (or maybe second) was on Sept 11, 2001. I am sure he could tell us some good stories about how the US defends their arab allies. truly ironic.

by the way he died after running back in to help, dont worry though Nolan the US did not upset their Arab allies, I mean 18 dead soldiers is probably not worth causing a diplomatic incident and actually finding the money trail.. of coarse not........................unbelievable........................

thanks
selkirk

 

[Nolan Dalla]

NOLAN REPLIES TO THE ABOVE:

*****First, to my freind in Canada. I don't understand why my comments here would be of any academic value -- I'm just taking a point of view that I believe in. But, you can certainly quote me freely. My residence is now in Washington, DC. On to other points:


Selkirk: I guess then the US should back nations that want to send sixteen year old kids into supermarkets with bombs strapped on them.

*****This is NOT an official policy of the Palestinian Authority, or any other Arab nation (although one could point out Iraq, Iran, and a few other countries in the region support and fund terrorism). These are random acts by radicals. There's a big difference. Keep in mind that the suicide bombings are a fairly recent phenomenon, started when Ariel Sharon shoved his way up to the Temple Mount in a clear act of provocation (even Sharon's supporters freely admit that their objective is to DRIVE PALESTENIANS OUT OF JERSUSELUM and ultimately rid Israel of all non-Jews -- that's not democracy....that's racism of the kind used in South Africa and Nazi Germany). Sharon's visit to Temple Mount enraged the local Palestinian population and set off a firestorm of protests. Even America protested Sharon's actions fearing the consequences. Don't forget incidents of JEWISH EXTREMISTS who went into mosques and shot up innocent people, killing dozens of women and children, people that were WORSHIPING (that's right -- the same tactics have also been used by the Israelis against Muslims, although just as in the PA case it not not state-sponsored terrorism.). A Jewish extremist also assassinated the former Israeli Prime Minister. These are random acts of violence by fantatics. And they happen on BOTH sides. If you want numbers -- keep in mind Palestinian death outnumbers Israeli deaths in the conflict by 3 to 1. THREE to ONE!

A society that has freedom of the press (show me one arab country that you want to make friends with that is a democracy and has a free press, to write whatever they want.)
not egypt, syria, Saudia Arabia, Iraq, Iran.

*****To suggest Israel is a democracy is a stretch of the imagination. indeed, there are multi-parties and free elections. But individuals do not enjoy the same Contitutional protections as in the USA. Ammnesty Internationsl alleges Israel uses torture. And if you are a Muslim, you are basically a second-class citizen. It's like calling South Africa under the Aparthied regime a "democracy." Sure, the Prime Minister and Parliament are elected, but it is NOT a free society for all citizens. If Isreal was a democracy, nearly half of its Kinneset would be comprised of Muslims. That's certainly not the case. Regarding monarchies throughout the Arab world, I agree with your point. Then again, if democracy were a litmus test of good relations, the USA would be at war with 2/3rds of the world.

Nolan if you turned your back on Israel to support non democratic states that funded the Taliban, I still believe Israel survives. perphaps you should take up a job as a European Union diplomat, that is basically their view of Israel.

*****I doubt it they would hire me. But thanks for the career counseling. If my baseball picks go south, maybe I will send a resume over to Belgium and see what happens.

by the way since if you were in charge of US foreign policy 1. you would turn your back on an ally

*****An ally? You mean the ally who was caught and convicted of SPYING on the USA (Jon Pollard case). I don't recall any Arab nation or decendents being convicted of espionage in this country. You mean the ally that attacked the USS Liberty warship in 1967 and killed dozens of American servicemen? You mean the ally that has never sent even a token force of international support to US-backed missions anywhere in the world? Hell, even the Turks (Muslims) sent troops to fight in Korea and the Balkans. Where was Israel's support? Israel calls itself an "ally," but what is its value? Answer -- it has virtually NO value in terms of global influence or credibility. Like I said, it would be like supporting tiny Rwanda and alienating the entire rest of Africa. A very dumb foreign policy.

2. keep to within your borders, that really worked well in Afganistan, well........

*****I'm sorry, but I don't understand the point you are making here.

3. Would you also pull out of Saudia Arabia, I mean half of the Royal family there want you out, and some members probably funded the Taliban.

*****I agree that many of the Arab regimes pose problems. However, what's eventually going to happen is that over the next few years/decades these largely corrupt, family-run regimes are going to topple one by one and be replaced by a popular front. What characteristic these new regimes takes is up to the US to a large extent. The US can ally itself with the Arab world (or at least be neutral in the conflict) and largely escape the scrutiny of these fundamentalist fantatics. Or, the US can continue to back Israel blindly, which continues to pour gas on a fire everywhere in the Middle East, turning off millions of impressionable Arabs to the ways of Western democracy. You have a lot better chance of winning people over by ENGAGING them with ideas and freindship, than making an enemy out of the entire region by backing a colonial power (Israel). This is not just hopeful thinking. It may very well be the only way the world has of avoiding WW 3. One additional thought: What happens when these anti-American regimes come into power throughout the Middle East and develop nuclear weapons (inevitable)? Ever think about the consequences? For that reason alone, we better start listening to these people and try to understand their grievances.

Nolan I believe Israel has the right to exist, I am sorry you do not.

*****Actually, you have misunderstood my position. While I would not have supported the foundation of Israel (if this were 1948), the fact that that country now exists with a indegenous population, and recognized internationally compels me to agree that Israel has a "right" to exist. My objective is to determine whats in America's best interest. Not Israel's. My political leaders do not represent Israel. They represent ME. And, I want a more balanced policy in the Middle East that is not so slanted towards Israel because we have a helluva' lot more to gain by being closer to the Arab world. Poltically, economically, militarily -- it's completely in the national interst of the United States to establish closer relations to Arab nations, and specifically the people of this region.

By the way it does not matter if the US supports them, they have won other wars against superior odds.


*****If it does not matter if the US supports Israel or not, then why in the hell are we over there? Pull out the money. Quit giving free military support. Start spending some of that money at home where it's needed. If they can defend themselves, then all power to them.

One more question Nolan, do you think if the Taliban and OSB killed 10-20 Israel soldiers or blew up two embassies what do you think Mossad would do, I mean besides making up wanted posters?

*****I see your point. Trouble is -- by invading an occupying Palestine, Isreal is creating EVEN MORE suicide bombers. Notice that the number of suicides and kilings has actually GONE UP since Israel took a hard-line position? That's called CAUSE and EFFECT. Palestinians that used to be moderate are now moving away from center to become extremists. Again, these things were not happening under Rabin's and Perez's leadership. Since Ariel Sharon has come to power in Isreal, things have deteriorated badly.


Dr. Freeze: If there was 1 pro-democratic person and 15 billion terrorists, we would defend the pro-democratic person.
again, if you are a Christian, and believe that God's promises are still indeed relevant for today, than you will think that the US has much to gain to defend Israel......and lots to lose if we stop.....

*****I believe in the teachings of Jesus. In fact, I consider myself a spiritual person. But, I DO NOT want the national policy of my country determined by how a group of ministers interpret the Bible. Remember that edict called "separation of church and state?" My God does not "choose" people. My God does not favor one group of people over another based on their ethnicity. My God does not damn entire nations because they don't support Israel (that's fanaticism). If God is separating the blessed from the damned based solely on their support for Israel (which is how many fundamentalist Christians believe), I want no part of such a Kingdom. Cancel my reservation. Sounds to me like heaven will be made up of a bunch of racists and people full of hatred for people that believe differently than themselves. My God is one of tolerance and accepts all people and all faiths, regardless of whether or not they sided with Israel in the Middle East conflict.

-- Nolan Dalla

 

[nighthorse]

the USA has a lot more to gain by not pissing off 300 million Muslims and making an enemy out of the entire Middle Eastern region than by anything that could come out of supporting a tiny nation that produces absolutely nothing of value to the USA. -- Nolan Dalla

That's the beauty of our support for Israel. That's how you can tell it's pure and it's real. In a stricky Kissenger/Nixonian-RealPolitik sense, it makes very little sense.

When we back dictatorships, people in those countries will get pissed at us at some point. Iran still despises us for that whole Shah thing. I can still hear the complaints....we supported Hussein, Bin Ladne, Saudi royalty, etc. and that's just the middle east. Think about the Phillipines, cuba, nicaragua, el salvador, chile, panama, blah, blah, blah. The Middle East will always find reasons to be pissed at us...they just can't help it.

Israel is the rock of the region. It produces a model for other governments to follow. The leadership changes without riots, uprisings or revolutions. The government has the support of the people. In Arab dictatorships, when the dictator falls, everyone who supported the dictator falls out of favor. The U.S. takes that risk when they support any dictator.

Bottom line is there's no point in trying not to piss off arabs and muslims until they form democratic governments. Turkey is the only Muslim nation we can count on......they are a democracy. Do you hear about any rioting there? Of course not. The real problem in the Arab world is not Israel or our support of them. In general, Middle Eastern governments totally suck and until somebody shows them a better way, they always will.

Believe me, we're MUCH better off supporting Israel.

 

[selkirk]

Nolan most of your counterpoints are well done and actually I agree with some of them. I do think both sides could accomplish more by talking.

Perez may get more done talking peace. Israel is a democracy I agree it is not perfect which one is??? I mean in the US only half the population evens bothers to vote and the number seems on the decline. US has a stronger democracy just trying to make a point.

As for the palenstines not supporting sucide bombers I agree to some extent. The PLO and Syria cannot stop all of the fanatics. However how many countries expressed grief at the passover massacre and pledge to stop the sucide bombings......answer 0.

Syria has a great deal of control over Lebanon but there are still missiles fired from there into Israel, I am sure Syria want to stop this in the worse way.....sure...whatever.


2. keep to within your borders, that really worked well in Afganistan, well........

*****I'm sorry, but I don't understand the point you are making here.

my point I made and maybe not directed at you is that many Americans believe they can ignore the world around them and just concentrate on their own borders. Afganistan is a great case of a Superpower leaving a region and not showing any interest in it. The fact that they did not even back the Northern Alliance still is hard to figure out. I mean if Sept 11, did not happen would the US have gone after OSB and the Taliban. If he chose smaller US targets not on US soil, would the US have done anything. History shows they never did anything in the late 90s. I mean 2 embassies, 18 soldiers killed, and also you stop a LA airport bombing and still they do nothing to try to bring down the Taliban or OSB. Not even a few dollars to a rival army, incredible.

by the way in the end I would like to see a democratic Palestine and Israel living side by side. The arab countries have to stop the sucide bombings and Israel will have to start talking and stopping some settlements.

as for getting arab allies in the invasion of Iraq, that is another mess, but will wait to comment until after the fall when they launch the attack on Iraq.

by the way Nolan good luck with that EU job if you get it , I know someone, she speaks 4 languages, so if you need someone to run the office let me know.


thanks
selkirk

 

[Myron]

Nolan first of all I'm from Canada so I neither consider myself an American or an Israeli. I am Canadian and I am Jewish but the 2 are independent of each other. My first commitment is to my country in world politics and to my religion in religion. But my statements have nothing whatsoever to do with religion or residence but rather with right vs. wrong.

As for your comment that the U.S. should back Arabs because it is more beneficial to them, what a short sighted and frightening thought. The U.S. should back those that are on the side of right. If you believe the Palestinians are being oppressed and therefore deserve the United State's support then you are entitled to your opinion. But don't say that they should back them because it will be best for them in the long run. Iraq is paying the families of suicide bombers 25,000 dollars. Do you feel that people should go and blow themselves up in malls because "in the long run it will benefit the families"? :nono:

Here's one other thing to think about. If you truly believe that countries should only worry about things that affect them directly, then George Bush by right should go on the air and tell the world that his comments about them being either with the U.S. or the terrorists is no longer relevant and the other countries can withdraw all troops from Afghanistan, Pakistan etc. After all September-11 was an attack on the U.S. not the world.

If the United States truly wants to wipe out terrorism and expects every country to help then they can't say that one form of terrorism is worse than another. He has no right to say Al Qaida is worse than Hezbollah or Hammas because at one time Al Qaida started out the same way. Did we not learn anything from the rise of The Third Reich?

 

[Nolan Dalla]

Myron and Selkirk:

Thanks for the replies. I suppose we just have to "agree to disagree."

One thing we can probably agree on is something Selkirk mentioned:

"By the way, in the end I would like to see a democratic Palestine and Israel living side by side."

I think most of us share this view. It's how to get there is how and where we have different points of view.

Thanks for the good debate,

-- Nolan Dalla

 

[Myron]

I have no problem with Palestine and Israel living side by side provided that they are both democracies and more importantly provided that the Palestinians stop aiming for the destruction of Israel as a goal. Unfortunately true democracy will never happen as long as Arafat is in charge of the Palestinians.

 

[djv]

What is so good about this exchange. To me it's because it comes from everyones heart. We are the real people saying these thing not a punch of politicians.

 

[rebel]

I agree djv and thanks to all posters

 

[TIME TO MAKE $$$]

maybe we should all head over there as UN peacekeepers??

 

[dovidp]

to Nolan Dalla

to Nolan Dalla

Peaceful coexistence in Efrat
By David Bedein April 4, 2002

Why was the Arab suicide attack in Efrat different from all other suicide attacks? Because it was directed against the medical services that Arabs receive from the community of Efrat.
Late in the afternoon of Sunday, March 31, 2002, which this year was both the fourth day of Passover and Easter Sunday, an explosion rocked Efrat. My wife, typing away yet another e-mail to one of many corresponding women from the world over, looked around the living room to see that the children were okay and resumed her correspondence, including the boom she heard in her closing paragraph. Elchanon, our almost-sixteen year old son, who helps me in every aspect of my work, ran to the scene of the blast, cell phone in hand, stood on a hill overlooking the evacuation of the wounded so that he could report to me at the press center in Jerusalem. Our office was able to place the story on the wire services - and, of course, to Elchanon's brother Noam, now a soldier on the Lebanese front.

Elchanon's first words said it all. This attack was different from all the other attacks. This time, an Arab blew himself up at the emergency mobile medical unit that dispatched medical staff to treat him. As the terrorist blew himself up, a medic that came out of the unit, Assaf Perlman, was riddled with shrapnel, sustaining injuries in his head and chest. Assaf is fighting for his life. Assaf is the same medic who risked his life at the Tomb of Joseph compound in October 2000 to try and save the life of an Israeli soldier, Madhat Yusef, who ultimately bled to death in Assaf's arms. Five other paramedics were also hurt, including Elchanon's tenth grade classmate, Netanel, whose parents, old friends of mine, came from New York to settle in Efrat.

After many threats, this attack was clearly aimed against Efrat's policy of providing medical services for the two Arab villages that are contiguous to Efrat. As a matter of policy, the Chief Rabbi of Efrat, Shlomo Riskin, raised substantial funds from liberal Jews for medical clinics and schools in these nearby Arab villages. It was a policy that earned the wrath of Arafat's Palestinian Authority. Rabbi Riskin made such a policy decision in the spirit of the Torah, which states 36 times that a non-Jew who lives at peace with you in the Land of Israel must be treated with dignity, respect and service.

In January, without warning, Channel One of Moscow filmed footage in the Arab villages near Efrat, expecting to hear stories about the 'Israeli occupation' and tensions between the small Arab village and the 16 expanding Jewish settlements of Efrat and the Etzion bloc. However, the Russian TV crew heard the opposite message. They heard only praise for the people of Efrat and the Etzion bloc of settlements and seething anger against Arafat and the "PLO occupation" of their fellow Palestinian Arab brethren in the Bethlehem region. Family after family in these Arab villages told Russian TV that they were getting the best medical treatment possible from their friends in Efrat, while their families in Bethlehem had to bribe officials just to get the basics of treatment from the PA. They also spoke with pride about the school that Efrat had built for them.

All of this was aired on Russian TV Channel One very recently. It would seem that the PA was watching. The clear purpose of the recent suicide bombing attack was to disrupt the existing, proper relationship between the Jewish city and the nearby Arab villages. Yet, despite the threats to their lives from Arafat and the Palestinian Authority, the people of the Arab villages near Efrat gathered in an emergency town meeting to issue a statement denouncing the attack in the strongest of terms.

It surprised nobody in those Arab villages that Arafat's police force took credit for the attacks.

 

[dr. freeze]

seems like the more we help Arabs the more likely it is that they turn on us.....see Iraq, Bin Ladin, etc.....

no point in helping these infidels....those who are not with us in the fight against terror are against us and should be eliminated