UFC Primetime: St-Pierre vs. Shields, April 13th/20th/27th

[DeFactoCrippler]

Fitch is a grinder. Jake is great with subs and is very dangerous in a ground fight.
I feel Jake can finish a ground fight at any time if given an opportunity, I don't feel the same about Fitch.

I made the point to say that if GSP could take down and control an superior wrestler (in Fitch) why couldn't he do the same to shields.

If Shield's takedowns are questionable, and Fitch couldn't him down, why would Shields be able to?

I think Sheilds is the far more dangerous ground fighter, especially when he's fresh.

He does the same thing as fitch, controls people on the ground and rubs their face with his forearm while his corner goes "heyyyy" like it actually did something.

Shields has better submissions that fitch, but I would in no way call them "elite". At the end of the dat shields is a glorified lnp artist.

GSP better stay away from the ground for the first 2 rounds or he could be in deep shit, after that, Jake will start to run out of steam.

I don't think that this fight will go anywhere other than exctly where GSP wants it. I'm just trying to say that Shields has no chance whether it's standing or on the ground.

Forget about the weight cut, in his last fight he got out "grappled" in many different occasions by a kickboxer who had been working on his ground game.

If Shields is as good as everyone is making him out to be why is GSP such a huge fave over (arguably) his toughest challenger in years?

He was only -600 over Hardy who had zero ground game. I would feel more comfortable betting Hardy as a dog because atleast he could catch him with a shot and actually put him down.

 

[gardenweasel]

I made the point to say that if GSP could take down and control an superior wrestler (in Fitch) why couldn't he do the same to shields.

If Shield's takedowns are questionable, and Fitch couldn't him down, why would Shields be able to?



He does the same thing as fitch, controls people on the ground and rubs their face with his forearm while his corner goes "heyyyy" like it actually did something.

Shields has better submissions that fitch, but I would in no way call them "elite". At the end of the dat shields is a glorified lnp artist.



I don't think that this fight will go anywhere other than exctly where GSP wants it. I'm just trying to say that Shields has no chance whether it's standing or on the ground.

Forget about the weight cut, in his last fight he got out "grappled" in many different occasions by a kickboxer who had been working on his ground game.

If Shields is as good as everyone is making him out to be why is GSP such a huge fave over (arguably) his toughest challenger in years?

He was only -600 over Hardy who had zero ground game. I would feel more comfortable betting Hardy as a dog because atleast he could catch him with a shot and actually put him down.

-if i recall,gsp softened fitch up on his feet...then g&p`ed him....fitch took some terrible punishment standing(if i recall)..i was thinking that gsp`s gameplan here will resemble the fitch gameplan...with even more emphasis on keeping it standing early.....

-i tend to agree that gsp will dictate where this fight goes...which imo,will be on their feet until shields starts to slow down....the mma setting makes gsp`s grappling comparable to shields because of all the other facets of gsp`s game shields has to consider......but in a strictly grappling format,shields would be the favorite,i`d wager...he`s bigger...and just a better grappler(based on his grappling history)

-you`re giving short shrift to kampmann`s ground game?...why?...he`s solid on the ground...he`s not just a striker...ask thiago and condit...

-i think hardy was way overhyped(as we now know)...he "talked" that line down a bit...

 

[BUCSnotYUCKS]

I think a lot of people on here aren't quite sure how good Jake Shields really is in the grappling and ground game department. He trains with the elite of elite in that area.

Say what you want, I know it's GSP, so everyone's gonna throw down his opponent like his opponent doesn't even deserve to be in the same city as him. But Shields took down an OLYMPIC GRECO wrestler AT WILL for almost an entire 5 rounds. Who also happens to be one of the most feared strikers in the world.

I understand, you discredit it for injury or whatever reasons, but find it funny how you guys can only use that to your argument when it's for your own discretion.

 

[DeFactoCrippler]

-if i recall,gsp softened fitch up on his feet...then g&p`ed him....fitch took some terrible punishment standing(if i recall)..i was thinking that gsp`s gameplan here will resemble the fitch gameplan...with even more emphasis on keeping it standing early.....

I agree, I was saying that someone like Fitch came in with the exact same game plan as shields did and couldn't do anything, and he has better takedowns. I'm not saying GSP isn't going to keep it standing , im saying he could just take him down at will and win that way if he wanted to.

-i tend to agree that gsp will dictate where this fight goes...which imo,will be on their feet until shields starts to slow down....the mma setting makes gsp`s grappling comparable to shields because of all the other facets of gsp`s game shields has to consider......

I think the mma setting puts GSP miles ahead. In the off chance that shields will actually complete a takedown, he will have to keep him down, and then do it every single round.

-you`re giving short shrift to kampmann`s ground game?...why?...he`s solid on the ground...he`s not just a striker...ask thiago and condit...

-i think hardy was way overhyped(as we now know)...he "talked" that line down a bit...

I would agree that martin kampmann is "solid" on the ground. Shields got the mount four times and did nothing, got shook of every time. He also got numerous takedowns stuffed. And this is martin kampman.

I think shields is just as overhyped as hardy here. They gave him a tuneup fight where Rogan was swinging from his nuts the whole time while he almost losing the fight.

Remember GSP cleaned out the division before they brought shields over, he had to fight koschek for a second time. So they hype shields as some kind of grappling god when he is the definition of a one dimensional fighter.

His out hope of winning this fight is by somehow lying on gsp and rubbing his face for 5 rounds. But considering gsp can't be taken down, and shields takedowns being suspect, plus the fact he couldn't reatain mount against kampman, make me think that this is unlikely.

The weight cut is killing him too, they gave him a loong time to prep for this fight and i don't think its enough, people were questioning his cardio at 185? . Even if he can take gsp down and out grapple him, he will not be able to stand in the later rounds.

 

[weepaul]

I made the point to say that if GSP could take down and control an superior wrestler (in Fitch) why couldn't he do the same to shields.

If Shield's takedowns are questionable, and Fitch couldn't him down, why would Shields be able to?

I don't think that this fight will go anywhere other than exctly where GSP wants it. I'm just trying to say that Shields has no chance whether it's standing or on the ground.

Forget about the weight cut, in his last fight he got out "grappled" in many different occasions by a kickboxer who had been working on his ground game.

If Shields is as good as everyone is making him out to be why is GSP such a huge fave over (arguably) his toughest challenger in years?

He was only -600 over Hardy who had zero ground game. I would feel more comfortable betting Hardy as a dog because atleast he could catch him with a shot and actually put him down.

GSP could take Fitch down without consequences. This is not the case with Shields. GSP has to worry about sub attempts.
If GSP takes Shields down and Shields happens to grab hold of a guillotine, GSP could be in deep shit.

I never said Shields could take GSP down. If Kos and Fitch had trouble, I'm sure Shields will struggle BUT if he does get GSP down, GSP has to worry about subs for a change.

I think you are crazy to think Shields has no chance on the ground.

You are really selling the "Kickboxers" ground game short. I could say GSP was subbed by just a "Wrestler" but it would sound really fukin foolish. Kampmann is no joke.
I do believe Shields had a difficult cut and probably took Kampmann lightly, this won't be the case against GSP.

GSP is such a huge favourite because he is GSP!!!
I don't believe this is GSP's toughest challenge but I do think it might be his toughest ground fight if it go's there BUT that's a very big if.


This is coming from a huge GSP fan. I hope George wins but I think he would be nuts to test Shields on the ground.

:toast: :toast: :toast:

 

[layinwood]

IMO the Kampmann fight showed a ton about Shields. You could see in the Sanchez Kampmann fight that Kampmann is very hard to take down, I believe Diego only could do it once(maybe it was twice) but Shields did it quite a few times and you could tell the cut hurt him. I think his TDs are VERY good especially when you consider people don't have to worry about his striking.

He'll be fine on the weight cut. The last interview I saw with him, he was already in the low 180s. That's an easy cut from there. He had bulked up too much for his SF fights but now should be ok.

This is one of those times that I wish GSP would try and show everyone that he's the best no matter what and because of that he takes the fight to the ground. I think he has too much speed for Shields even on the ground. I have no desire to see GSP beat him up on their feet. I would say Jake has no shot but the kid has heart and to say that is a joke. He's beaten everyone put in front of him so I'm not selling him short. Hopefully we'll get to see a great 5 round war. I think GSP needs a WAR for his legacy. I want to see him fight through some hard times, to get out of some tight subs and to weather the storm.

 

[The Sponge]

Some of these things being said in this Joint is absolutely hilarious. Have anyone watch Shields last few fights? Okay first with Hendo. Ten seconds before the match the annoucers said Hendo had a heck of a time cutting to 185 because of all sorts of back issues. I didn't make this up. They siad it so u can throw that match right out the window. Heck Hendo went for it all in the first 20 seconds and almost knocked him out. Next it seem like it took Shields forever to submit Daley. I know it ended in round two but he was in the mount forever before he got the arm bar. Jason fukin MIller had him basically choked out and he was saved by the bell. Kapman got up any time he wanted when Jake took him down. Im not a GSP nuthugger here but like Weasel said this is gonna be the Fitch game plan. Smack the shit out of him to make his wrestling basically a none factor. Koschelk admitted thier first fight he did no wrestling training at all because he didn't think he needed it and did a lot of it in the second fight and u could see the difference. Kos is a freak athleticly and GSP still almost shut his wrestling down. Shields is no Kos when it comes to wrestling. Shield couln't even sub a totally gassed out Hendo in round three let around round five. Please bet this fight down to 2 to one for ur pal Sponge. The only freaking way GSP loses this fight is if he throws it so he doesn't have to fight Silva lol. Shield will be in it for awhile and that is about

 

[gardenweasel]

Some of these things being said in this Joint is absolutely hilarious. Have anyone watch Shields last few fights? Okay first with Hendo. Ten seconds before the match the annoucers said Hendo had a heck of a time cutting to 185 because of all sorts of back issues. I didn't make this up. They siad it so u can throw that match right out the window. Heck Hendo went for it all in the first 20 seconds and almost knocked him out. Next it seem like it took Shields forever to submit Daley. I know it ended in round two but he was in the mount forever before he got the arm bar. Jason fukin MIller had him basically choked out and he was saved by the bell. Kapman got up any time he wanted when Jake took him down. Im not a GSP nuthugger here but like Weasel said this is gonna be the Fitch game plan. Smack the shit out of him to make his wrestling basically a none factor. Koschelk admitted thier first fight he did no wrestling training at all because he didn't think he needed it and did a lot of it in the second fight and u could see the difference. Kos is a freak athleticly and GSP still almost shut his wrestling down. Shields is no Kos when it comes to wrestling. Shield couln't even sub a totally gassed out Hendo in round three let around round five. Please bet this fight down to 2 to one for ur pal Sponge. The only freaking way GSP loses this fight is if he throws it so he doesn't have to fight Silva lol. Shield will be in it for awhile and that is about

what`s the object of this game?.....it`s to get the "w".....and how many of these fights did shields lose?.....

it gets tiresome hearing about all these injuries that guys had after they lose...personally,i think it`s all a load of horsecrap....if you get in the cage and get beat,you get beat....period...when i check fightfinder,i don`t see any qualifiers listed(hendo has a bad back/joe blow took the fight on short notice/koscheck is a mental case and used bad startegy).....i looked and i didn`t see anything of the sort....

excuses are for losers...that`s why losers make all the excuses...

secondly,i`d wager that in a flat out grappling match that shields beats koscheck..... the guy is a world class grappler....and he doesn`t have the mental issues that koscheck has...in a scenario where shields doesn`t have to worry about strikes,i think he also beats gsp...

the fact that this guy has found a way to beat all these guys with zero stand-up is testament to just how great a grappler he is....he`s top 3(top 5 at worst) in all mma,imo....

all that said,without ANY stand-up game to speak of...in canada....in a 5 round fight.....it`s pretty damned hard to see a scenario in which shields wins this.....unless he can get into position for an early submission(as weepaul indicated)....

too many variables going st pierre`s way...and the venue is a huge advantage...

looking at props for this one...

 

[The Sponge]

what`s the object of this game?.....it`s to get the "w".....and how many of these fights did shields lose?.....

it gets tiresome hearing about all these injuries that guys had after they lose...personally,i think it`s all a load of horsecrap....if you get in the cage and get beat,you get beat....period...when i check fightfinder,i don`t see any qualifiers listed(hendo has a bad back/joe blow took the fight on short notice/koscheck is a mental case and used bad startegy).....i looked and i didn`t see anything of the sort....

excuses are for losers...that`s why losers make all the excuses...

secondly,i`d wager that in a flat out grappling match that shields beats koscheck..... the guy is a world class grappler....and he doesn`t have the mental issues that koscheck has...in a scenario where shields doesn`t have to worry about strikes,i think he also beats gsp...

the fact that this guy has found a way to beat all these guys with zero stand-up is testament to just how great a grappler he is....he`s top 3(top 5 at worst) in all mma,imo....

all that said,without ANY stand-up game to speak of...in canada....in a 5 round fight.....it`s pretty damned hard to see a scenario in which shields wins this.....unless he can get into position for an early submission(as weepaul indicated)....

too many variables going st pierre`s way...and the venue is a huge advantage...

looking at props for this one...

When have u ever heard Hendo make excuses? Heck he didn't even make them for that fight and still doesn't. It came out of the mouth of others. I hope after this he fights Kos. Will see how much he throws Kos around. In his big win streak who the heck has he beat? A young Condit? A hurt Hendo?. Kapman who a lot thought won? Where are all the wrestlers? Okami back in 06? LIke Defact said there is a reason GSP is a five to 1 fav. Shields is a nice fighter but he isnt this killer u think he is.

 

[The Sponge]

i hope Shields has a nice chin like Fitch or this is gonna be a short night for him. He did recoup from a nice shot from Hendo but Fitch chin might be on a different level.

 

[gardenweasel]

When have u ever heard Hendo make excuses? Heck he didn't even make them for that fight and still doesn't. It came out of the mouth of others. I hope after this he fights Kos. Will see how much he throws Kos around. In his big win streak who the heck has he beat? A young Condit? A hurt Hendo?. Kapman who a lot thought won? Where are all the wrestlers? Okami back in 06? LIke Defact said there is a reason GSP is a five to 1 fav. Shields is a nice fighter but he isnt this killer u think he is.

i guess that "announcers" divined this information?....

it came from henderson`s camp....same difference....excuses,excuses....he got lnp`ed....by a better grappler...end of story...

who has shields beaten?.....okami/henderson(who both may well beat ANYBODY on gsp`s ledger)/condit/lawler/mike pyle/nick thompson/mayhem miller/kampmann......


i know,all soft touches (can`t believe i`m making this argument...and i`m picking gsp...lol)...

shields is a winner...you don`t like the way he does it?....o.k...he`s not exciting...agreed......but he`s good at what he does.....he wins....

gsp will have to fight smart early,imo.....he got arm barred by a 31 year old matt hughes...shields sub game is better than hughes....

he just has to keep range early,stuff takedowns and pick shields apart....

then maybe grind him out...

but i wouldn`t fool around on the ground in the first or second round if i were gsp....

maybe i`m wrong:shrug: ....that`s why they fight the fights....

 

[The Sponge]

End of story lol. In ur mind it is the end of the story and armbarred by Matt hughes.:0002 This shit that happen 5 years ago is just that,shit. The GSP who lost to HUghes Via armbar wouldn't last with the GSp of today for 30 seconds. Big wins over a 22 year old Condit and Okami both again who he couldn't finish. Anyone worth a salt he can't sub. He mounted Daley for almost two straight rounds before he could sub him. Miller recently had him in a choke so deep that only the bell could save him. His ground and pound is awful. His boxing is awful. I can't wait till GSP finally exposes him. Talk about a guy carryin a horse shoe in his back pocket. This is the guy. Finally he will fight a wrestler who isn't hurt. Lets see how he does. Big win over Kapman that many thought Kapman won and if Kapman wasn't one of the dumbest fighters on the planet he would have won. Matt Hughes sub him Via armbar :mj07: :mj07: :mj07: If they fought today Matt Hughes would be beaten so quick his legacy would evaporate.

 

[DeFactoCrippler]

Some of these things being said in this Joint is absolutely hilarious. Have anyone watch Shields last few fights? Okay first with Hendo. Ten seconds before the match the annoucers said Hendo had a heck of a time cutting to 185 because of all sorts of back issues. I didn't make this up. They siad it so u can throw that match right out the window. Heck Hendo went for it all in the first 20 seconds and almost knocked him out.

I have to agree with Sponge here. It doesn't matter what the reason is, in that fight Hendo gassed and then all of a sudden Shields busted out the elite grappling.

I know he got the W, but imo that is not a true display of grappling abilty. if anything, it exposed his weak submission game cause he couldn't finish a gassed fighter who was pretty much asking to be subbed.

Next it seem like it took Shields forever to submit Daley. I know it ended in round two but he was in the mount forever before he got the arm bar.

And daley was really inexperienced at this point and had no idea what to do when mounted. He just lay there, the only reason he escaped in the first round was because jake let him up after attempting a sloppy armbar.

It seemed to me Daley just kind of gave up that submission out frustration and it wasn't exactly elite by jake.

 

[DeFactoCrippler]

secondly,i`d wager that in a flat out grappling match that shields beats koscheck..... the guy is a world class grappler....and he doesn`t have the mental issues that koscheck has...in a scenario where shields doesn`t have to worry about strikes,i think he also beats gsp...

you may have a point because here is a video of him submitting fitch in a grappling competition. But I haven't seen him do anything near that in an mma fight. We are just going on credentials really.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/kKTgWUYsNB8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

who has shields beaten?.....okami/henderson(who both may well beat ANYBODY on gsp`s ledger)/condit/lawler/mike pyle/nick thompson/mayhem miller/kampmann......

The only one that stood out to me was the Okami fight. But if you go back and watch it shields in no way outgrappled him and his takedowns looked really bad. One could argue Okami got jerked on the decision. Win or lose I have no clue how they gave that third round to jake, okami just beat him up.

<object width="480" height="360"><param name="movie" value="http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/video/x1gqj5?theme=none"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/video/x1gqj5?theme=none" width="480" height="360" wmode="transparent" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always"></embed></object><br /><a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1gqj5_jake-shields-vs-yushin-okami_sport" target="_blank">Jake Shields vs. Yushin Okami</a> <i>by <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/mma-tv" target="_blank">mma-tv</a></i>

shields is a winner...you don`t like the way he does it?....o.k...he`s not exciting...agreed......but he`s good at what he does.....he wins....

I was thinking the same thing and I thought what his highlights would look like. :facepalm:

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[The Sponge]

The thing about that Fitch video is it looks like a grappling and JU Jitz tourney. Did Fitch even know what JU Jitz was? If it wasn't then i don't understand how Shields is allowed to choke and throw triangles in a grappling match. And again all this stuff is old. Everyone is evolving. wrestlers were getting sub in 45 seconds every match. Now u rarely see any elite wrestlers getting subbed. Any except idiot Sonnen. Shields is a good fighter i understand this but people have caught up to him, when his game isn't getting much better.

 

[The Sponge]

Boy it is easy to say Shields won 15 in a row until u watch some of his fights. He beat Okami :mj07: That is the first time i watched that and he didn't beat Okami either. So great lets let his record say he beat him and run with it. Another horseshoe up his ass. He didn't win that fight either.

 

[DeFactoCrippler]

The thing about that Fitch video is it looks like a grappling and JU Jitz tourney. Did Fitch even know what JU Jitz was?

probably not, the vid was from a while ago it seems.

Joe Rogan was using it to hype shields during the kampman fight because it one of the few impressive things he has done, lol.

If it wasn't then i don't understand how Shields is allowed to choke and throw triangles in a grappling match.

It was "submission wrestling"

And again all this stuff is old. Everyone is evolving. wrestlers were getting sub in 45 seconds every match. Now u rarely see any elite wrestlers getting subbed. Any except idiot Sonnen. Shields is a good fighter i understand this but people have caught up to him, when his game isn't getting much better.

I totally agree, shields hasn't got any better in 5 years. how can you when you dont fight top competion. The progress gsp has made 5 is ridiculous. Shields hands actually looked worse vs kampman :shrug:

 

[gardenweasel]

henderson lost...whatever the reason...whatever the excuse...he lost....he lost to jake shields...


as did okami...as did condit....as did jason miller...lawler/kampmann et al....


now who on gsp`s ledger blows these guys away?...

/*disclaimer..."i like gsp vs shields"...repeat: "i like gsp over shields,particularly in a 5 round fight in canada"...

 

[BUCSnotYUCKS]

henderson lost...whatever the reason...whatever the excuse...he lost....he lost to jake shields...


as did okami...as did condit....as did jason miller...lawler/kampmann et al....


now who on gsp`s ledger blows these guys away?...

/*disclaimer..."i like gsp vs shields"...repeat: "i like gsp over shields,particularly in a 5 round fight in canada"...

drop it gardensweasel, they can only make this argument when it's for their fighter.

can't believe ppl are trying to pick apart Jake Shield's grappling and wrestling, LMFAO. Dude is easily one of the most elite fighters in that department in the world.

You wanna talk about the lack of finishes? Look at GSP, the dude hasn't finished a fight technically since beatting Serra in the rematch. But it's okay because HE WINS.

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

drop it gardensweasel, they can only make this argument when it's for their fighter.

can't believe ppl are trying to pick apart Jake Shield's grappling and wrestling, LMFAO. Dude is easily one of the most elite fighters in that department in the world.

You wanna talk about the lack of finishes? Look at GSP, the dude hasn't finished a fight technically since beatting Serra in the rematch. But it's okay because HE WINS.

:0074 One green box for you.