Vegas Craps - Harley Style ......
- Thread starter HarleyHorn
- Start date
A great thread Harley..just the kind of fun reading I was looking for following my bypass surgery.
It is good to be back at Madjacks and good to be reading about my favorite game.
Keep it coming.:SIB
It is good to be back at Madjacks and good to be reading about my favorite game.
Keep it coming.:SIB
BBMF ....... may the Dice Gods be with you so you can throw many more dice ....... Godspeed & God Bless !!
Unfortunately the Corporate Accountants have taken over too many casinos in Vegas -- namely Harrah's properties :nono: ........ I know how to spot a Logistics problem caused by an accountant because it takes one to know one ..... and I was a CPA in my former life
Harrah's has fired/transferred all its boxmen out of the Pit :nono: they now have standing Pit Supervisors with 1 head Gaming Floor Supervisor ...... the problem is these standing Pit guys do no work and it screws the game up by slowing it down
whenever someone buys in, the dealer has to count the $$$ out slowly in the "COME" area instead of near the casino chip racks where the Boxman would do it -- then the standing Pit Supervisor has to ok the incoming cash count & that it must equal the outgoing chip count
At most NORMAL casinos this is 1 fluid motion ... or at least less disruptive than at Paris and Bally's now
WTF
The dealers hate this extra work without extra pay .... the standing Pit supervisors have their hands tied -- they want to help, but are not allowed to
Paris also uses Little disks near the cash drop slot to Identify who the customers are by rating ..... a 7 Star member (highest ranking - high roller) was complaining that the game was too slow and that he wanted to toss the dice but it was taking too long to get the dice back to him from the Stickman ..... a frustrated Standing Pit Supervisor walked over and ask him to complain to Harrah's about how the lack of a real Boxman was ruining the gaming experience at Paris and Bally's & that a complaint should be noted on the suggestion cards they put in each room .... and to fill out 100's of them !!!
Unfortunately the Corporate Accountants have taken over too many casinos in Vegas -- namely Harrah's properties :nono: ........ I know how to spot a Logistics problem caused by an accountant because it takes one to know one ..... and I was a CPA in my former life
Harrah's has fired/transferred all its boxmen out of the Pit :nono: they now have standing Pit Supervisors with 1 head Gaming Floor Supervisor ...... the problem is these standing Pit guys do no work and it screws the game up by slowing it down
whenever someone buys in, the dealer has to count the $$$ out slowly in the "COME" area instead of near the casino chip racks where the Boxman would do it -- then the standing Pit Supervisor has to ok the incoming cash count & that it must equal the outgoing chip count
At most NORMAL casinos this is 1 fluid motion ... or at least less disruptive than at Paris and Bally's now
WTF The dealers hate this extra work without extra pay .... the standing Pit supervisors have their hands tied -- they want to help, but are not allowed to
Paris also uses Little disks near the cash drop slot to Identify who the customers are by rating ..... a 7 Star member (highest ranking - high roller) was complaining that the game was too slow and that he wanted to toss the dice but it was taking too long to get the dice back to him from the Stickman ..... a frustrated Standing Pit Supervisor walked over and ask him to complain to Harrah's about how the lack of a real Boxman was ruining the gaming experience at Paris and Bally's & that a complaint should be noted on the suggestion cards they put in each room .... and to fill out 100's of them !!!
another knock on Harrah's Evil Empire -- from the Las Vegas newspaper:
"An honest mistake collides with the cold, hard corporate reality
JANE ANN MORRISON
Moral question of the day: What would you do if you were a parking valet and a man who had consistently given a $2 tip every night for more than two weeks straight suddenly handed you two white chips, one a $1 chip and one a $5,000 chip?
Assume it was a mistake and point it out?
Thank the gambler profusely for his generosity?
Just put it in the tip pool to be divvied up?
Generous tips are not unknown. But does anybody out there think a $5,000 tip to a valet was anything but a mistake?
Randall Skaggs, a professional gambler since 1974, admitted it was his mistake. He'd been playing at the World Series of Poker until the wee hours of June 30 when he went out to the valet at the Rio and gave the $5,001 tip.
Skaggs, 65, who has heart problems, had been renting a scooter to get around the casino during the World Series of Poker, which began June 1. Every night when he left about 2:30 a.m., he said, he would tip $10 to the bellman who helped him with the scooter and $2 to the valet, usually with casino chips.
The night he made his mistake, he went home, and while he slept, his girlfriend took his pants to the cleaners. He assumed the valuable white casino chip from the Bellagio also went to the cleaners.
They checked with the cleaners, but the chip wasn't there.
But on July 5, Skaggs said, World Series of Poker tournament director Jack Effel mentioned the $5,000 valet tip and asked whether Skaggs meant to do it or whether it was an accident. That's when Skaggs realized what had happened.
Since then, Skaggs has been trying to get his money back from Harrah's Entertainment, owner of the Rio. To no avail. The chip had already been cashed and divided among the valet tip pool.
Harrah's officials didn't return six calls Tuesday and Wednesday to confirm or deny Skaggs' version of what happened.
But Skaggs said the executives who checked it out told his girlfriend the valet pool was divided 20 ways, so each valet received $250. When hotel executives sent out a memo about the incident, one of the 20 offered to return the tip.
Skaggs thinks that for pure good will, the hotel should refund his money.
Harrah's officials think otherwise. After my first calls on Tuesday, Skaggs was contacted and told he wouldn't be getting his money back.
His son is an attorney, but Skaggs said it's not worth it to spend $50,000 to get back $5,000.
He complained to the Gaming Control Board but learned the resort apparently hasn't violated any regulations. While Skaggs got some sympathy, there was nothing for regulators to do.
The Kentucky native said he did the same thing in 2002, giving a Horseshoe cocktail waitress a $5,000 tip. That woman pointed out his mistake, and he paid her $1,000 for her honesty. Isn't that the way it's supposed to work?
A Sun City Summerlin resident for seven years, Skaggs is well known in the poker rooms and is telling his tale of woe at the tables. He's not a poor man, so the loss of $5,000 is the pain of principle.
He thinks, and he's probably right, that if this had happened at an old-time gambling joint like the ones run by Benny Binion or Jack Binion or Steve Wynn, the $5,000 chip mistake would have been corrected just to preserve good will and to make poker players feel they are being treated fairly.
"If this was Benny or Jack, this would all have been taken care of," Skaggs said Tuesday.
But those days are gone.
This is the era of corporate bean counters and one-size-fits-all policy-driven decisions.
Sure, Harrah's income is up 85 percent this second quarter over the same quarter last year.
Sure, fixing a $5,000 mistake that's not the company's mistake would generate good will within the poker world.
But that's not what happened.
Tough luck for Skaggs, who now is telling the tale of greed and a morality that says it's OK to take advantage of an obvious mistake.
Kudos to the one valet who supposedly offered to give his or her $250 share back.
One out of 20."
http://www.lvrj.com/news/9051721.html
"An honest mistake collides with the cold, hard corporate reality
JANE ANN MORRISON
Moral question of the day: What would you do if you were a parking valet and a man who had consistently given a $2 tip every night for more than two weeks straight suddenly handed you two white chips, one a $1 chip and one a $5,000 chip?
Assume it was a mistake and point it out?
Thank the gambler profusely for his generosity?
Just put it in the tip pool to be divvied up?
Generous tips are not unknown. But does anybody out there think a $5,000 tip to a valet was anything but a mistake?
Randall Skaggs, a professional gambler since 1974, admitted it was his mistake. He'd been playing at the World Series of Poker until the wee hours of June 30 when he went out to the valet at the Rio and gave the $5,001 tip.
Skaggs, 65, who has heart problems, had been renting a scooter to get around the casino during the World Series of Poker, which began June 1. Every night when he left about 2:30 a.m., he said, he would tip $10 to the bellman who helped him with the scooter and $2 to the valet, usually with casino chips.
The night he made his mistake, he went home, and while he slept, his girlfriend took his pants to the cleaners. He assumed the valuable white casino chip from the Bellagio also went to the cleaners.
They checked with the cleaners, but the chip wasn't there.
But on July 5, Skaggs said, World Series of Poker tournament director Jack Effel mentioned the $5,000 valet tip and asked whether Skaggs meant to do it or whether it was an accident. That's when Skaggs realized what had happened.
Since then, Skaggs has been trying to get his money back from Harrah's Entertainment, owner of the Rio. To no avail. The chip had already been cashed and divided among the valet tip pool.
Harrah's officials didn't return six calls Tuesday and Wednesday to confirm or deny Skaggs' version of what happened.
But Skaggs said the executives who checked it out told his girlfriend the valet pool was divided 20 ways, so each valet received $250. When hotel executives sent out a memo about the incident, one of the 20 offered to return the tip.
Skaggs thinks that for pure good will, the hotel should refund his money.
Harrah's officials think otherwise. After my first calls on Tuesday, Skaggs was contacted and told he wouldn't be getting his money back.
His son is an attorney, but Skaggs said it's not worth it to spend $50,000 to get back $5,000.
He complained to the Gaming Control Board but learned the resort apparently hasn't violated any regulations. While Skaggs got some sympathy, there was nothing for regulators to do.
The Kentucky native said he did the same thing in 2002, giving a Horseshoe cocktail waitress a $5,000 tip. That woman pointed out his mistake, and he paid her $1,000 for her honesty. Isn't that the way it's supposed to work?
A Sun City Summerlin resident for seven years, Skaggs is well known in the poker rooms and is telling his tale of woe at the tables. He's not a poor man, so the loss of $5,000 is the pain of principle.
He thinks, and he's probably right, that if this had happened at an old-time gambling joint like the ones run by Benny Binion or Jack Binion or Steve Wynn, the $5,000 chip mistake would have been corrected just to preserve good will and to make poker players feel they are being treated fairly.
"If this was Benny or Jack, this would all have been taken care of," Skaggs said Tuesday.
But those days are gone.
This is the era of corporate bean counters and one-size-fits-all policy-driven decisions.
Sure, Harrah's income is up 85 percent this second quarter over the same quarter last year.
Sure, fixing a $5,000 mistake that's not the company's mistake would generate good will within the poker world.
But that's not what happened.
Tough luck for Skaggs, who now is telling the tale of greed and a morality that says it's OK to take advantage of an obvious mistake.
Kudos to the one valet who supposedly offered to give his or her $250 share back.
One out of 20."
http://www.lvrj.com/news/9051721.html
......... another day and another left hook from the Harrah's Evil Empire -- this time at Paris .....
$100 REWARD to anyone and everyone for filing a police report for a valid claim vs. Paris or Bally's Craps Pit Bosses
Reason - I got robbed in plain daylight ...... I am playing at one of the Paris tables and have over $400. across when I start seeing the tosser throw a bunch of craps and some people also threw cash on the table to buy-in so I tell the dealer to "turn my bets off until I say working" ...... he says ok .... the next throw is a come out toss with a 7, then next number is a crap and then another 7 before a point is finally established ...... the very next throw is a 7 and the dealer starts taking my chips down before I catch him and say "Wait - you can leave mine up there" .... he says, "Oh yea .... but ..." we both look down and don't see the Off button on the chips so he calls the floating table supervisor over since there is no Boxman that normally monitors OFF bets
The dealer tells the young Asian floating table supervisor Tats that I had told him to keep the bets Off until I told him to turn them on, but that he had forgot and made them work anyway after the new point ......... easy enough, the dealer admitted he made a mistake but the young corporate Asian guy says "Lock up the chips" and he goes and starts telling the overall Gaming Floor Supervisor Tim (elderly graying Caucasian) ....... Tim sends the dealer on a break and away from the table and explains to me that they will review the tapes ...... I tell him that the video tapes will not prove anything except that the bets were not working on a previous roll - that he would have to check the audio
Of course Harrah's Inc. is too cheap to have audio table mikes to verify bets even when smaller casinos do ....... Tim explains this to me so I said "Well, the dealer explained that he made a mistake so why do we have to look at the tapes" then Tim lies to me and says the dealer never said that I had ordered the bets "Off" ...... I said wait a minute, let's ask the Dealer again what happened --- Tim said well he is on break, but I have already talked to him ..... I said I would like to hear that conversation again so I waited 20 minutes before the dealer came back from break but as he stepped up to the table, the stickman told him to go talk to the shift supervisor who immediately told him to leave the floor again ........ all this time my $400.+ is still locked up on the table, but they are keeping the dealer away from me behind "corporate" doors ....... so then the Eye in the Sky Supervisor Shane G. calls back down and says the tapes show that no Off button was on the chips and therefore the bets were working no matter what was verbally said
- the Company Line had been made in the sand and they were sticking to it
So I tried to reason with Tim that how would my bets be working if I never was paid anything since they had been off and he agreed "they were off, but since a Point was established that all bets started working again, just like a Hardway bet" ..... I argued that was not industry standard but he said it was a new Paris rule ........ yea like 30 minutes old I bet
Tim further said it was my duty to watch my chips no matter if a dealer made a mistake or not ........ this I agree with but its hard to see every slip of hand the dealer makes like moving 1 small hard to see "Off" button from 1 stack of chips when that 1 Off button controls 6 stacks of chips spread over 4 feet or so
So even though the only witness - the Dealer - admitted he had made a mistake, the Suits - Tats, Tim and Shane G. - all stuck to a company line to rob me in plain daylight and literally right under my nose
as stated in the previous post:
........ another example of how Harrah's patrons suffer because of corporate penny-pinching moves to remove the Boxman and make the gaming experience less fun
----------------------------------------------------------------------
and to where Craps is more fun (most of the time) - Sam's Town where they are again sporting orange wristbands that say "KEEP IT FUN" ........ these are the same wristbands that Boyd Gaming handed out last year to its Craps dealers at Fremont downtown and to most of it other properties ........ so I was playing at Sam's Town early 1 morning when a tall Asian dealer was wearing the orange band when I asked him what it said ..... he took it off and gave it to me ...... I said thanks and tossed him a $1 chip and said "his choice - either lock it up or play it where he wishes" ...... he put it on the Hard 6 ......... 3 rolls later and a Hard 6 gave the boys a $10 payoff for that orange wrist band ....... Kharma payback to a very pleasant dealer that always makes the game fun !!!
......... no way the corporate Paris goons "KEEP IT FUN"
$100 REWARD to anyone and everyone for filing a police report for a valid claim vs. Paris or Bally's Craps Pit Bosses
Reason - I got robbed in plain daylight ...... I am playing at one of the Paris tables and have over $400. across when I start seeing the tosser throw a bunch of craps and some people also threw cash on the table to buy-in so I tell the dealer to "turn my bets off until I say working" ...... he says ok .... the next throw is a come out toss with a 7, then next number is a crap and then another 7 before a point is finally established ...... the very next throw is a 7 and the dealer starts taking my chips down before I catch him and say "Wait - you can leave mine up there" .... he says, "Oh yea .... but ..." we both look down and don't see the Off button on the chips so he calls the floating table supervisor over since there is no Boxman that normally monitors OFF bets
The dealer tells the young Asian floating table supervisor Tats that I had told him to keep the bets Off until I told him to turn them on, but that he had forgot and made them work anyway after the new point ......... easy enough, the dealer admitted he made a mistake but the young corporate Asian guy says "Lock up the chips" and he goes and starts telling the overall Gaming Floor Supervisor Tim (elderly graying Caucasian) ....... Tim sends the dealer on a break and away from the table and explains to me that they will review the tapes ...... I tell him that the video tapes will not prove anything except that the bets were not working on a previous roll - that he would have to check the audio
Of course Harrah's Inc. is too cheap to have audio table mikes to verify bets even when smaller casinos do ....... Tim explains this to me so I said "Well, the dealer explained that he made a mistake so why do we have to look at the tapes" then Tim lies to me and says the dealer never said that I had ordered the bets "Off" ...... I said wait a minute, let's ask the Dealer again what happened --- Tim said well he is on break, but I have already talked to him ..... I said I would like to hear that conversation again so I waited 20 minutes before the dealer came back from break but as he stepped up to the table, the stickman told him to go talk to the shift supervisor who immediately told him to leave the floor again ........ all this time my $400.+ is still locked up on the table, but they are keeping the dealer away from me behind "corporate" doors ....... so then the Eye in the Sky Supervisor Shane G. calls back down and says the tapes show that no Off button was on the chips and therefore the bets were working no matter what was verbally said
- the Company Line had been made in the sand and they were sticking to it
So I tried to reason with Tim that how would my bets be working if I never was paid anything since they had been off and he agreed "they were off, but since a Point was established that all bets started working again, just like a Hardway bet" ..... I argued that was not industry standard but he said it was a new Paris rule ........ yea like 30 minutes old I bet
Tim further said it was my duty to watch my chips no matter if a dealer made a mistake or not ........ this I agree with but its hard to see every slip of hand the dealer makes like moving 1 small hard to see "Off" button from 1 stack of chips when that 1 Off button controls 6 stacks of chips spread over 4 feet or so
So even though the only witness - the Dealer - admitted he had made a mistake, the Suits - Tats, Tim and Shane G. - all stuck to a company line to rob me in plain daylight and literally right under my nose
as stated in the previous post:
........ another example of how Harrah's patrons suffer because of corporate penny-pinching moves to remove the Boxman and make the gaming experience less fun
----------------------------------------------------------------------
and to where Craps is more fun (most of the time) - Sam's Town where they are again sporting orange wristbands that say "KEEP IT FUN" ........ these are the same wristbands that Boyd Gaming handed out last year to its Craps dealers at Fremont downtown and to most of it other properties ........ so I was playing at Sam's Town early 1 morning when a tall Asian dealer was wearing the orange band when I asked him what it said ..... he took it off and gave it to me ...... I said thanks and tossed him a $1 chip and said "his choice - either lock it up or play it where he wishes" ...... he put it on the Hard 6 ......... 3 rolls later and a Hard 6 gave the boys a $10 payoff for that orange wrist band ....... Kharma payback to a very pleasant dealer that always makes the game fun !!!
......... no way the corporate Paris goons "KEEP IT FUN"
Last edited:
.... forgive me for being on a Harrah's rant this week, but found another caution from the Evil Empire:
http://www.brodietech.com/liontales/2007/06/fall-of-roman-empire.html
.... so this brings up the issue of whether 1 should use his/hers player's card or not ... sure the comps are nice - I get about 300 free hotel room offers a year, some air fare comps and free meals -- but at what cost -- is it worth the wrath of the casino countermeasures ??!! :shrug:
I was told by a friendly dealer I have known for over a year at a Harrah's property that when they give your card at a Craps table that they can pull up everything on you except your blood type ........ and they are allowed to put in 2 types of comments:
1. Permanent comments that stick on the front page of your profile (like "usually makes this kind of bet" and "sets dice")
2. Daily comments about your play
http://www.brodietech.com/liontales/2007/06/fall-of-roman-empire.html
.... so this brings up the issue of whether 1 should use his/hers player's card or not ... sure the comps are nice - I get about 300 free hotel room offers a year, some air fare comps and free meals -- but at what cost -- is it worth the wrath of the casino countermeasures ??!! :shrug:
I was told by a friendly dealer I have known for over a year at a Harrah's property that when they give your card at a Craps table that they can pull up everything on you except your blood type ........ and they are allowed to put in 2 types of comments:
1. Permanent comments that stick on the front page of your profile (like "usually makes this kind of bet" and "sets dice")
2. Daily comments about your play
Last edited:
YYZ - This is why you take advantage of the broken slot machine whenever possible. The casinos are not interested in "making things right" when you make a mistake. ....or even if you never even made the mistake.
Here's the reply I had over at the site this stuff came from:
You can't hang this bonehead's mistake on HET. Yeah, it's a sad story. I'm sure the old guy didn't intend to toss 5 grand to a valet. I'm sure the valet knew it. But, I guess he (and 18 of his 19 peers) was of the mindset of the folks on this board who would steal from the slot machine that was set wrong, too. Harrah's pays this off, and they are listening to every cherry picking piker down the road. "I didn't mean to put a $500 chip on "red"! I swear.....I thought it was a $5 chip!", and so on.
Now, if they stole this craps players chips like he says it went down, then they are in the wrong. That doesn't validate stealing on your part.
The guy was a valued customer and respected local for 30 years! His pattern of spending was well-established. Any other business and the customer would have been given the benefit of the doubt.
Casinos take advantage whenever possible, because they know they are pushing something that people are addicted to. They can get away with it. They have as much honor as a drug dealer, only they push something that's legal in some places.
Last edited:
I fully understand that the casino doesn't give a shit about you/me/this guy.
Everyone wants to say how "old Las Vegas" would have coughed up the 5 grand. Well, maybe "old time Las Vegas" would have called in the valet attendants, and had a chat with them, instead?
I'm guessing the $5000 would have found it's way home real quick like.
Everyone wants to say how "old Las Vegas" would have coughed up the 5 grand. Well, maybe "old time Las Vegas" would have called in the valet attendants, and had a chat with them, instead?
I'm guessing the $5000 would have found it's way home real quick like.
Harley
great stuff here. I love playing craps. Last time I went to Vegas a few months ago I spent 8 hours straight on one table, It felt like I had only been there for two hours until I got the dreaded cell phone call from the wife at 4:00am in the morning to see if I was still alive. Beleive it or not I do my best work fully loaded when I start taking more risks and dont care if I lose it all just knowing that it will turn around eventually.
Anyway, I 'm really surprised to hear your bad experiences with Harrah's cause I've been playing/staying at the Rio for the last 8 years because that's the one place i've always come out a winner playing craps.
I wont even tell you what my strategies are because they are so lame but they seem to work for me but like I said if I go through a bad stretch I always know there will be a good stretch coming and that's when I start raising my bets. It's all about being disciplined in craps. You just have to weather the storm until the rainbow appears.
great stuff here. I love playing craps. Last time I went to Vegas a few months ago I spent 8 hours straight on one table, It felt like I had only been there for two hours until I got the dreaded cell phone call from the wife at 4:00am in the morning to see if I was still alive. Beleive it or not I do my best work fully loaded when I start taking more risks and dont care if I lose it all just knowing that it will turn around eventually.
Anyway, I 'm really surprised to hear your bad experiences with Harrah's cause I've been playing/staying at the Rio for the last 8 years because that's the one place i've always come out a winner playing craps.
I wont even tell you what my strategies are because they are so lame but they seem to work for me but like I said if I go through a bad stretch I always know there will be a good stretch coming and that's when I start raising my bets. It's all about being disciplined in craps. You just have to weather the storm until the rainbow appears.
SoCalYo -- I concur 110% !!! ..... more than 1 way to skin a coon ..... do tell about your strategy .... always good to have a winner in your pocket you can lean on
.... something a new good buddy from Alabama taught me this past week -- I have a handicap -- my palms get sweaty just like Eminem's when I am on stage ........ when I pitch, I use the rosin bag; when I bat, I use 2 batting gloves -- as I also do when I golf ......... but at the tables it would probably be frowned on if I used batting gloves or tried to argue that I was Michael Jackson's 1-gloved cousin :11jackson so he suggested I fill up 1 pocket with corn starch ...... and it works !!!! :00hour just like a pitcher's rosin bag
But just like it's a good idea to put your hands opened up at the top of the steering wheel when the cops pull you over, you should also put your hand flat on the table before you pick up the dice to show the Boxman & Eye-in-the-Sky that you just didn't get an extra dice out of your pocket to switch it with the casinos' ......... but be careful wipe off the excess corn starch before you put your white powdered hands on the dark felts around Vegas....... and be sure to wear light colored cargo pants to wipe the excess corn starch on before you put your hand on the table --- otherwise you will get stares like you have been sniffing too much
