Vegas Craps - Harley Style ......

Vegas Craps - Harley Style ......


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BBMF

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Harley: First of all, thanks for your well-wishes regarding my surgery and recovery.

Second, and most important, your Harrah's stories are very troublesome to read. I am a lower rated player (there is no Harrah's in Minnesota, so I get rated on short trips to Joliet, Kansas City and Vegas). For the most part, I have been satisfied as a "rewards player".

Nothing disturbs me more than corporate interests continually searching for ways to F#$K the customer and Harrah's treatment of their High Rollers and the other incidents is abhorent. You can bet I will be sending in my complaint letter on your, and many others', behalf.

Man..trying not to get too pissed here, but can;t help it.

Good luck and keep the stories coming.
 

HarleyHorn

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BBMF ....... please do your biofeedback or other stress relieving exercises before you read any more of my posts ..... we need you on our team, don't let them conquer you

... some of you may be thinking what the heck do all these stories about casinos ripping off patrons have to do with craps ..... well it's part of my research into the heart of my enemy -- as Sun Tzu told us:

?Know thy self, know thy enemy. A thousand battles, a thousand victories.?

.... and a lawsuit filed in Vegas alleges more:

Lawsuit says casinos abusing technology

... The odds favor the house, but the games aren't fixed.

At least, they're not supposed to be.

A lawsuit filed Monday alleges new gaming technology allows casinos to significantly limit blackjack players' chances of winning. The system, sold by the MindPlay division of Alliance Gaming Corp., purportedly protects the integrity of blackjack games by ensuring cards are dealt in the order they are shuffled.

But attorney Bob Nersesian alleges some casinos use the system to count cards and boost the house advantage. Each card is scanned, its spot in the deck recorded, allowing the system to calculate the house's chance of winning each hand. With that information, Mr. Nersesian says, casinos can reshuffle whenever the odds favor players.

The allegations in the lawsuit are disturbing, and not just because casinos have detained and banished blackjack players believed to be counting cards -- a legal tactic.

The gaming industry's viability -- and the state's economy -- hinge on the premise that gamblers get a fair shake. Even the slightest hint that fancy shufflers and other glittering casino technologies can be used to swing the outcome of games is a black eye for Nevada.

The Gaming Control Board, named in the lawsuit, should take the allegations seriously and investigate whether casinos are using the technology to soak gamblers.
 

JCDunkDogs

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A good read, Harley! You should write a book. With the explosion of casino gambling, there aren't enough good books for hard core dice degenerates. Good luck, and don't play dice at the Bellagio. The dealers/box men are Fascist pigs!
 

BBMF

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Harley: I have taken to meditation after reading your posts.:00hour

It has been a week, hope your play has been profitable.
 

HarleyHorn

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BBMF ...... is that "meditation" or "medication" :) Dice has forced me into both ... I meditate before I throw the dice to help me get that Tiger-like focus ...... and after I stink up the joint with several bad tosses, I will medicate

my apologies as I have just finished another weekend Dice course learning more about the art of Dice throwing ........ in addition to reading about 4 books on Craps, I have now spent over $1,800 in dice courses in the past year ........ or about as much training as a Masseuse takes to get certified

so for the last 2 weeks I have been practicing and charting my tosses more than I have been playing in the casinos ........ just like the football players do -- practice leads to better play ..... and this is in addition to "batting practice" every day before I head to the casinos with real $$$ on the line

I built a practice rig resembling the playing conditions of a casino Craps table, only smaller mainly because a real craps table costs about 2x a nice pool table and takes up more room than a pool table .... but most serious Dice gamers have their own Craps table ......... maybe someday I will

So every day I take "batting practice" just like your professional baseball players do ...... at home I will throw about 20 to 80 tosses before I head to the casino .... and if I am staying in a casino, I will step back about 12 feet from the corner of the bed where I have set up the pillows to catch my dice as I try to get my hand-eye coordination down .......... dayyyyyummm those guys & gals that can just walk up to a table and toss all day without practice :com: but that is what is so beautiful about craps .... anyone can play & hit a homerun at any time

TRENDS:

Today I experienced something at the tables I have never done before ..... I had a dice on 2 separate throws hit the table and die -- as in stick flat on the surface without moving as if I had hit a long golf ball into a very soft rain soaked green

I had been throwing on the only open table at the local casino and was not doing worth crap and had lost about $60. when I said enough was enough -- I was convinced after watching my toss do nothing as well as every player at the table have bad throws that the current trend of those Dice at that table was BAD ...... I asked the dealers when their other table was going to open and they said in about an hour so a buddy and I went to breakfast and came back in time just as they were opening the table .....

they handed brand new frosty dice to me with sharp edges and I begin tossing the dice with my knuckleball toss instead of my back spin toss ...... now it is an official Gaming law in Las Vegas that both dice must hit the back wall but 1 of my dice died as it hit the surface ......... I was ready for the crew to yell at me ....... but they were kind to me and said nothing since they know I usually have no problem hitting the back wall with both dice

I tossed again and the dice went normally - rolling to the back wall of "rubber diamonds" ...... then my 3rd toss again had 1 dice just die in the middle of the table about 15 inches from the back wall .... I was shocked and apologized to the crew ....... I continued on the best hand I had all day -- only about 16 rolls, but still MUCH better than I had had at the other table earlier ........ I tracked my tosses and noticed I had hit all the Box numbers except the 9 --- this was a key TREND to be at this table with these dice

the table filled quickly with 14 to 15 players and I studied the dice as each player tossed them ... and I started to notice that several players with long tosses would either have the 9 or it's sister the 5 not be hit at all ......... so the dice came back around to me and again the way that I threw the dice no 9 was made ........ about the 3rd player down from me was on a hand of about 10 rolls and again he was hitting every number except the 5 so based on this TREND, I tossed out a $100 black chip and told the dealer to quietly Lay the 5 ...... a few more rolls and the player never hit the 5 before the Devil came up .... nice win into my rack

for the next 2 hours I did the same Lay betting on either the 5 or 9 ....... I won every time and as I got a little more gutsier, I started betting more $$ on the Lay 5 or 9 in addition to my regular inside Box number bets ..... the dealers were trying to explain my irregular bets to the other players as they had noticed I had started winning every time I made that bet ........ these Dice were not landing on either the 5 or 9 ... very peculiar TREND for a set of dice, but then again almost every set of dice will have 1 kind of trend or another and if you can spot that TREND & capitalize on it you will be a happy camper :00hour

well evidently the Eye-in-the-Sky also noticed me capitalizing on this TREND because they changed the dice just a little over 2 hours after the previous dice change :scared they did not change the dice at the other table which is routine ...... also routine is that dice in Vegas are changed every 8 hours on every table usually when the shift changes ..... but not this time !!!! ..... as the new dice came to me after a few players had zero luck tossing them, I decided I would not try to overcome this casino countermeasure and I decided to color up with a nice profit instead of gambling a few of my gains back to the casino .......
 

HarleyHorn

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FATIGUE:

dang ....... I just had one of my worst days ever tossing the bones ...... I tried 2 different positions with 2 different sets & tosses ....... and I was still the worst tosser on the table :shrug:

usually I am 1 of the top 2 throwers on the table, but not this early AM ..... and the only thing I can blame it on is FATIGUE: ........ I was so excited that my practice tosses at home were going so well that instead of climbing in the sack, I headed out to the casinos :00x25 no way should I have done so

I often meet out-of-towners at the airport as they fly in and we would always race to the tables .... what the heck -- them bones are not very heavy ........ HOWEVER, in order to get a good consistent rhythm, you cannot be tired or have any jet lag ---- even if you don't feel tired, it will show in your tosses as they will lack consistency :( and I would say nearly 80% of the time your 1st session at the tables after a flight is one of your worst of the whole trip ....... so now I don't even tempt my buddies to go to the tables when I drop them off at their hotels - I instead say "I will meet you in the morning"

and THIS session for me was no different than a long flight as I was dead tired after a long day
 

1fsthatch

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Hey Harley, I really enjoyed reading about all of your Dice expierences across town..I've been the same way constantly checking out casino after casino looking for places that get big rolls..I am currently a dice dealer at El Cortez Casino downtown on freemont street mainly a locals casino..We have 10x odds and a 3 dollar came which is very respectable for most players that enjoy the game..We get monster rolls in our casino..Three times a day the dice go on 30 min. sessions with no 7's..Its totally a come betters dream..I only wish i could play at this place and when i leave and get another job i really plan on doing so..If you get a chance on your trip definitley stop in and check the game out..Look for one of the big boys with great stick calls, that would be me..Good luck..
 

acehistr8

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Harley, really enjoying this thread so far. I agree about Paris being one of the better places to play. I stay there @ 15 nights a year (be back end of Sep) and if I can say one good thing about HET its that they have no problem giving away free hotel nights like candy, I dont think I've paid for a night in 4 or 5 years.

But on the weekends I will tend to play at Bellagio for many of the reasons you identified. My "game" is pretty boring, $15 pass line, full odds, 2-3 come bets and I will throw a fire bet out there occasionally depending on the shooter. I set the 3 "V" and always try to pick out the same spot every time. I wont say whether or not I think setting works or doesn't work and I wont argue either way but its what I've done and will continue to do. I've never gotten heat because of setting even during very successful rolls if for no other reason then I try to let the dice fly very quickly after getting/setting them.

I love Bellagio but unfortunately MGM/Mirage is cheap as hell with their room comps compared to HET and they use a vastly different system/policy regarding rooms. But perhaps thats another thread.
 
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HarleyHorn

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acehistr8 ........ AMEN to all your points !!!! ......... keep up the good tosses ..... I see a lot of success by people using the 3V at the tables .... and 1 of my record throws of 50 tosses was using the 3V

I was at Monte Carlo recently - another cheap MGM property - when the boxman gave me back my card and said I needed to have $25. in action on every roll for 4 hours straight to earn a measly buffet

likewise, the host at Bellagio - another cheap MGM property - said I had to average a minimum $28 per bet for 4 hours to get a free pass to their nice Buffet

and Treasure Island - TI - another cheap MGM property told me that my rated play started over every 30 days ...... at least Harrah properties keeps your rated play & benefits active for 6 to 15 months

at Bellagio - I get to see a lot of eye candy at Bellagio ........ not only walking near the tables but also playing there ...... I recently played on the same Bellagio table as actor David Krumholtz of Numb3rs and SuperBad fame and his long-time girlfriend

021_davidkrumholtz_peopleschoice06.jpg


she was not tossing, but Krumholtz was betting mostly 6 & 8s and had a good rhythm toss

..... also saw former NBAer Charles Oakley at the table next to me as my dealer said he comes their often & said he was a "jerk" - but did not elaborate when I asked why

1fsthatch ...... good to hear from a professional dealer !!! ......... I will have to take you up on your invitation --- are your tables open 24 hours ?? .... lots of local places are not 24/7 :(

and what does "E.O." mean ?? :shrug:

speaking of dealers, I found this message board for crap dealers & 1 of their topics is Dealer "Pet Peeves":

Pet peeves on a dice game? there's so many...

Late bettors.

People who make improper bets and get mad when I can't figure out their retarded ideas. 27 across? bet. 49 inside? no bet. Oh, you meant 44 inside, including the point, high 9. that's a bet. ****tard.

Boxmen or base dealers who try to figure out complicated prop box payoffs out loud. especially when they're not doing it in english, and they get the wrong ****ing number.

Grouchy old ****ers. I was always taught to respect my elders. after dealing with these jerkoffs for a few years, most of my elders can kiss my entire white ass. Grouchy old people suck

Players who are convinced that they're system or method of play is the best and/or only way to play the game. If they teach others, they are even worse.

Micro tippers. Win: $10,000. Tip you: $2. Keep it, please.

Anyone who has ever said to me, "you have a bad attitude". **** off. Let's see how your attitude is when i show up at your work, break all your rules, blame you for it, and treat you like a farm animal.

Bosses who won't give me an E.O. in craps because there's a big player coming, and "we need strong dealers". Oh yeah, then the next day, they schedule me to deal blackjack, and some extraboard rookie is dealing craps. WTF

Boxmen who do jack shit. IF a beef comes up, wake up and ****ing try to fix it. Don't just sit there if i'm in some argument with a player. either tell the player to shut up, or tell me to shut up. I hate worthless boxmen.

Rookie dealers who say "I knew that" every time they blow a payoff. Or, they have an excuse for every mistake/blow procedure. no one cares. just fix it and move on. we were all break ins once

Suits who have to be right just because they're in a suit. We're all people. I may be in black in whites, but you **** up plenty. Just admit it every once in a while. I admit it when I make mistakes.

Players who bet a horn, world, C & E, and/or 3-way craps all at once. Just bet a god damn $25 world or something.

Players who start barking payoffs and press moves before it's their turn. 16 people fit around a dice table. STFU, i'll get to you when i'm good and ready, and barking numbers and pointing your finger is a good way to make me slow down

Players who ask, "is this right?" if you made some stroke bet like 185 odds when the point is 6, and you don't like my payoff, you need to either know what it pays and tell me, or bet 200 odds like a normal person. Otherwise, yes, $222 is the right payoff on your dumb stroke bet. FOAD.

Stick dealers who ask, "is that right?" when i'm on base. see above. If i'm wrong, tell me how to fix it. I'll cut out the extra checks and send it. If you're not sure, figure it out somewhere else besides a live game.

Boxmen who know less than me trying to bust my balls. I deal a clean game with very few shortcuts, and I stick pretty close to procedure. I have no problem with going through the come, or using my outside hand, or whatever. But if you tell me this shit, you better be able to tap me out and show me the right way. Don't talk shit cuz you're sitting in that little seat.

Good lord, the list goes on and on. This just scratches the surface.

and another dealer posts:

1. players that shoot the dice and snap their fingers.
(when they seven out I say "Sevenout on the snap"
2. Break ins who think they are good dealers
3. Base dealers who don't book their sides prop bets or which player they came from(particularly on a jam up game)
4. Players that call the dice. I usually ask them if they want to step in so I can go home early.
5.players who scream same dice when they go off the table and they aren't even shooting.
6. Boxmen who call the dice ( I hate that even more than players who call them) They need to do their job not mine.
7.People who say " Don't touch my money!" Well it's on my layout so I'll touch if I need to.
8.people who drop money down expecting you to know what they want and then get pissed when you ask them. I lost my psychic ability years ago.
9. Stickmen who fling the dice to a player instead of pushing them.
10.Players who keep telling you to dump the bowl (usually when a natural rolls)
11. players who bet 54 across , press and press and then tell you to take them down to 27 across.
12. players who tell you to put them up and then take them down two rolls later and then put them up again.
13. Players who keep asking over and over and over again what the proper odds are on a given number. Can't they listen????
14. People in the business who play on my game, stroke the hell out of us, win and don't tip.
And this is just the tip of the iceberg

and another Dealer says his complaints are:

- Any $20 buy in on any game.

- Women who cover their breast when you short stick them. :scared

NO LINKS
 
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1fsthatch

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Your welcome Harley..Our tables are open 24 hours a day but like i said im a day time dealer between 10-6...I really dont know what the action is like on swing or graveyard shift..

Id definitley like to see ya come in and play..I think youd enjoy the scene..We do have our occational regulars that love to stroke us dealers but other than that its a real fun game..

Keep the posts going, i enjoy reading about your journeys to the dice tables..
 

cavy1

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Hey Harley
The venture that you are on is intriguing.
I have a couple of questions for you . When you throw the dice in a 3 V set do you end up throwing one dice in front of the other as just the way your swing is? It is imperative to have the 3 v up or could you throw the 4 4 or the 2 6?
Any other helpful hints for us crap lovers?
I am going out in October and would like to hook up for a few rolls. I will also be going to the El Cortez to see if the tables are hot.
Thanks
cavy1
 

HarleyHorn

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acehistr8 - excellent site !! ..... I am fortunate to know the Dice Coach and would recommend him to everyone I know

cavy1 ..... I would suggest you go to his site and sign up for a session for the morning after you land in Vegas ..... send him an email or call him and tell him that Harley sent you ...... he will surely charge you only double if you mention my name, but it will be worth the investment ;) Dice Coach will show you the best set to use for your particular natural toss .... everyone is different so it takes a trained professional to put you on the right path, otherwise it's like playing golf without ever taking lessons :nono:

many great dice throwers I know sign-up for a tune-up session with Dice Coach every time they come to Vegas ..... he has a regulation table in his house that you train on --- and the results show at the tables -- it's well worth the time & investment that will be paid back quickly at the tables

If you want to hook-up to toss a few, send me a PM here or ask Dice Coach for my cell number
 
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1fsthatch

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Hey Harley, havent heard back from ya in awhile, just wanted to see how the dice were treating ya..Sorry i didnt see your question on the above message.."E.O." i believe means Early Out..The dealer thats starts on the stick, depending on how many is on the crew, will be the first to leave after the shift is over..

Still waiting for ya to come in..We had a few big rolls this week..I came in yesterday to a guy on a hour roll and up 15k..The had to bring 500 checks to the table for his action..I know, sounds lame but big for our house..

Id definitley like to meet up sometime as well and through some dice with ya..
 

StevieD

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I am also a dice setter who has been having some luck lately. We play once a week. Lately I have had some great throws. Nice to see other dice setters. That dicecoach site is a great site for anyone who wants to learn the different sets and what they are used for.
 

cavy1

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1fsthatch
can't wait to get to the El Cortez. I am always saying that there hasto be a hot table in Vegas every day and every night

StevieD
I an thinking of see the dice coach and then meeting up with Harley in Vegas

I am from Canton Ma and stop in at the woods when I visit now
 

HarleyHorn

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1fsthatch - my bad - I was in route to El Cortez the other day but parked at Fremont and played too long there before I made it to the El C ... do you guys give good meal comps like Fremont does ??

...
.... something a new good buddy from Alabama taught me this past week -- I have a handicap -- my palms get sweaty ... so he suggested I fill up 1 pocket with corn starch ...... and it works !!!!

Not so fast my friend ..... following WARNING:

About three weeks ago a friend of a friend of mine got in bad trouble for using powder at the Grand in Tunica. I was told by one of the Pit Bosses at another Casino there it is a 2nd class felony. I do not know if this is right or Bull Crap.

One of the guys in Vegas told me about using Bounce for clothes driers, they have silicon on them. Put one in your pocket and it has no color or residue that can be seen. This is safer.
 

HarleyHorn

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What's wrong with just wiping your sweaty meat hook on your pants?

good question - ask a pitcher why he doesn't do the same ....... there are benefits to a rosin bag ....... or why doesn't a QB use his pants instead of a hand towel

same principal

it's not only sweat, but oil on the dice from everyone else touching the dice, especially after lunch when too many want to throw the dice after eating buffalo wings .... also, oil can accumulate on the pants and you just end up wiping your fingers back into the same sweat & oil .... a rosin bag or some other substances help break down sweat, oil and most foreign substances on the dice

the concept is to make sure 1 finger does not stick to the dice while the other dice takes off a head of it, therefore creating a possible double pitch or uneven release of the dice ......... why set the dice if your release is not even
 
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