Vegas Craps - Harley Style ......

[Handi Capper]

How can you say you get better odds at BJ than a craps odds bet? The reason you get comped better at BJ is because the odds are worse, right?

YOUR RIGHT AGAIN:00hour :00hour

 

[acehistr8]

YOURE NOT RIGHT AGAIN. How can I say it, I dont know, because its right?

While the odds bet itself is indeed a "true odds" bet, meaning no house advantage, you need to look at the whole bet. The house advantage on the pass line is 1.41%. That means for every $15 bet you have 21 cents "at risk" ($15 * .014). So on PL+3 come bets you would have 84 cents at risk ($15 * 4 * .014%)

The house advantage on the DD Blackjack games I play is .19% so for every $100 hand I have only 19 cents at risk ($100 * .0019).

Couple that with the fact that you never see a pit boss checking what each of the 10-12 shooters is betting on each bet (vs the attention they give a $50 BJ table) and its easy to see how you get rated for shite at craps. If they check every 10-15 minutes you could easily see how you could be rated a $15-$30 player with just your passline bets vs what you can get rated at $100/hand at blackjack with the same bankroll. Especially consider the RFID tables at places like Wynn. There are RFID chips in the chips and scanners in each table spot. The computer reads and knows automatically on each hand how much you are betting. No need for a pit boss.

Again, to review the odds:

House advantage on the pass line: 1.41%.
DD BJ house advantage: .19%

 

[Agent 0659]

Well you completely turned around what I said, and suddenly now you are playing DD BJ.

But you clearly know what you are talking about.:00hour

 

[acehistr8]

Well you completely turned around what I said, and suddenly now you are playing DD BJ.

But you clearly know what you are talking about.:00hour

DD BJ is all I play, but I wouldnt go so far as to say I know what I'm talking about, thats one thing I've never been accused of!

 

[HarleyHorn]

LoL ........ I don't know diddly squat, but I enjoy learning everyday

What I learned today:

Crapless Craps - The Stratosphere has the 1 and only Crapless crap table in Las Vegas

Crapless Craps (patent#: US 7134660) is my game :00hour if played on a nice hard table with good dice and a good crew.

I was first introduced to Crapless Craps during my trip to Tunica to play with our Tunica Craps Gang - The Resorts Casino in Tunica also has 1 Crapless table, but it is much better playing conditions than the one in Las Vegas

In Crapless Craps, the first thing to notice is there is no DONT PASS or DONT COME. In addition to that your come out points include the traditional 4-5-6-8-9-10 but also the 2-3-11 and 12. The rules of play are very simple. Come out roll SEVEN WINS! Any other number rolls and it becomes your point! Throw another seven after the point is established.......You lose! ... If you throw a twelve on the come out roll the dealer marks the 12! Or perhaps the shooter throws a two or three, yes even the 11 will be the game point! You cannot lose on the come out roll. (Hence..'Crapless') It goes without saying that the pass line will NOT win on an 11 come out ....... Other than that all other standard rules apply. The game offers traditional proposition bets and hardways with true odds, come bets place bets and lay bets with (standard 5% vig) Again you can only 'lay the point' as there is no DONT PASS or DONT COME area on the layout.

....... the Stratosphere Crapless table has the following Pros & Cons:

Pros:

- fun game

- easy parking (although long walking distance from most Strip casinos)

- $5 game

- fair Non-Mexican dice (I will explain in another post later)

- rubber diamonds are smaller 7 rows and better than the larger 5 rows of diamonds that effect your dice more

Cons:

- does not open until 11:00 AM

- 2 of the daytime boxmen (10 to 6ish) are Aszholes with a capital A (ie, will tell you to stop talking to other players when one of the other players ask a particular question about the game and other dragon-like characteristics)

- they do not allow "Same Dice requested" from the previous hot roller

- Stratosphere is a "break-in" joint for new dealers, so often you will get dealers that do not know how to pay bets or basically are slow in dealing, therefore taking a hot thrower out of his rhythm

- they will dump the dice if your dice rolls onto the top of the chip bank ("To Tall to Call") unless you are super quick to request your own same dice

- the crapless table has very different thickness surface areas that cause it to be very BOUNCY (for instance, some of the table surface (plywood under the felt) is very shallow and other areas are very thick (either 2 pieces of plywood are used in some areas while other areas of the surface are supported with studs or without studs at all, giving a shallow wall effect instead of a uniform surface that thick plywood or 2 uniform pieces of plywood will give) .. just tap on the surface there and you can tell the thickness difference ........ and throwing from 1 side of the table will produce a different bounce than throwing from the other side (I personally prefer throwing from the side adjacent to the next table - NOT the side adjacent to the walking aisle)

- the rubber diamonds are extra bouncy

- you must pay 5% up front BEFORE you win for the Buy bet on the 2, 3, 4, 5, 9, 10, 11, & 12 Place Bets ..... whereas most Las Vegas casinos (other than Sam's Town) allows you to pay the 5% vig on a Buy bet AFTER you win the $$$ on the 4 & 10 Buy Bets (Tunica Crapless Craps allows you to automatically buy all $10. 2, 3, 4, 5, 9, 10, 11, & 12 Place Bets & pay the 5% vig AFTER you win :00hour ) ......... key strategy at the Stratosphere is to make several Buy Bets at once so you only have to pay the minimum vig since the casino does not have $.25 chips to make change, for instance - pay $1. for 5 $5. Buy Bets (or at least $25. worth of Buy Bets) to maximize your $.20 charge per bet

-------------------------------------------------------------

PS - btw, Craps tables may have less reward comps for the following reasons:

- a Tunica employee informed me that the Craps tables at this particular casino (remains nameless to protect my source) were the least profitable to the casino of all table games in the casino & they were doing a study on how to increase the profit margin at it's craps tables, including but not limited to:
......... changing dealer uniforms to half sleeve to prevent dealers from hiding chips;
......... not allowing dealers to wear large watches - all to help reduce chips walking out the door (either legitimately or not)

- A Las Vegas Harrah's dealer told me that their craps tables were not very profitable for the casinos and simply there for "entertainment purposes" for their patrons

- A Vegas Paris Dealer told me that each of the dealers had to go thru a scanner before and after every break and after work to help determine where all the Craps table profits were going (Paris chips have RFID chips in each of their $25 and higher chips whereas most casinos start at the $100. chip level)

... The radio frequency identification, or RFID chips look just like regular ones, only they contain radio devices that signal secret serial numbers. Special equipment linked to the casino's computer systems and placed throughout the property will identify legitimate chips and detect fakes...

- many casinos have been reducing their number of craps tables to make room for more profitable gambling games like slots and BJ and poker tables (ie, Casino Royale, Sam's Town, etc. .... also, btw, Las Vegas Hilton is closing it's Poker Room after 2 years to make more room for slots)

- Many casino giants like MGM & Harrah's have eliminated the Boxmen at the Craps tables to help the profit margin there, even though the gaming experience is greatly sacrificed

 

[cavy1]

Hey Harley
Just got back from Vegas. Had a session with the Dice coach. Very nice guy . I told the coach you referred me I was blown away at the possibilities. I have been throwing dice for the last 9 years and had no idea of setting the dice. I look forward to picking your brain. I got your number from him but no avail. I tried a couple of times. I like to throw from the ends. He had me throw with aces kissing and a 5-9 set or 6-8 set because I was double pitching.
He had so much information I was overloaded. Each day I threw I got more confident and finally I rolled a 7 ten times on a roll out. Stack it stack it stack it rack it.
My friend just ordered a practice table and we are going to practice throwing properly. Any info for a newbie would be appreciated.

Thanks again
cavy1

 

[HarleyHorn]

cavy1 ...... glad to hear you had a great trip !! .... sorry I missed you, the cell phones do not always work when I am in the casinos so make sure you leave a message to get me.

Casino Countermeasures:

Four Queens in downtown LV ....... as mentioned above, I confirmed in person that the washboard like under layer exists on both ends of each craps table for about 15 inches out from the end ....... it is not visible to the naked eye, but you can easily feel the waves with your fingers.

And now, on a recent trip to the Tunica Fitz, I found the Fitz craps tables have a similar, yet different wavy under layer beneath the felt. Again it is invisible, but your hand can feel a hard corrugated cardboard effect only in the center of the table (not in front of the hooks) starting about 3 inches from the back wall and going towards the center at least 3 feet. In both casinos, these wavy under layer countermeasures will knock your dice off axis.

 

[Keyser Soze]

I used to deal on the Crapless table at Resorts (Tunica) a few years back when it was still Harrah's. We very rarely even opened it. There wasn't much interest in it and when we did open it, the players never were able to muster up anything worthwhile. I can't recall when the table remained open for an entire shift.........When dealing for Harrah's, you cannot play at your own casino, so I used to walk across the street and play at Sam's Town which had a crapless table when I was there. One night while playing on the regular table two down form it, one of the dealers that I was pretty close with, stopped and told me to get my ass over to the crapless table immediately as she was headed for her break. I looked over and it was slammed! I have never been much for the "due theory", so I figured if it was hot, it would remain hot. Unfortunately, I didn't have a lot of $$$$ left after my round on the other table. I only had about $50 bucks on me so I squeezed in on one end, thanks to another dealer friend that was working, and put a whole $10 on the 2,3,11,and 12. The toughest thing was for the dealers to find enough room on the layout. There were guys there with five blacks on every number. It lasted about another 20 minutes after I got there and I ran my $50 up to a little over $600, but that was chump change compared to what that table dumped in a little over an hour. I was told they dumped just a bit over $200K in just over an hour! I've never personally seen a boxman sweat so much!!!...........And I have to say that Sam's Town is about the ONLY thing that I miss about Tunica:com:

 

[acehistr8]

Ugh, crapless craps carries terrible odds, boosting the starting house edge from 1.4% on the passline to 5.4% :com:

 

[HarleyHorn]

Keyser Soze ....... great story & great win !!!!

... I have never been much for the "due theory", so I figured if it was hot, it would remain hot.

I also do not agree with the "due theory" as much as the mathematicians do ....... I believe "hot" dice come from 2 sciences:

1. Physical science - including that most things are not made perfect, including dice and that the smallest amount of imperfections in the dice can effect the normal dice distribution pyramid

2. Quantum physics - isn't it uncanny how the following will almost occur as much as a Yo on the Come Out:

- the Yo will come on the roll after a Point is made

- the 7 out will come on the roll right after the Point is made, after everyone on the table just wanted a 7 or 11;

- if the 5 is the Point, that a 10 will be thrown, or vice versa even though they are not sister numbers on the dice

- if the 8 is the Point, that a 4 will be thrown, or vice versa even though they are not sister numbers on the dice (are too may people hoping for a 4-4 Hard 8 :shrug: )

- the next roller will toss immediately (or within a couple of rolls) the previous roller's Point that was NOT made

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning."
Werner Heisenberg


"For the quantities which figure in Quantum Mechanics' laws make no claim to describe physical reality itself, but only probabilities of the occurrence of a physical reality that we have in view."
Albert Einstein

 

[Agent 0659]

Harley, my Grandfather taught me to play Craps. He used to tell me little things, similar to what you posted above. One thing he told me is to ALWAYS bet the field after a 4 was rolled. This is the only time he ever bet the field.

A buddy and I tracked this for quite a long time, maybe 2 years? It hit right at 73%:00hour

I still to this day put $20 in the field after a 4, with very good success! Keep an eye on it, must be something with how they push the dice to people after a 4 is rolled?

 

[HarleyHorn]

Ugh, crapless craps carries terrible odds, boosting the starting house edge from 1.4% on the passline to 5.4% :com:

acehistr8 ..... this is true if you walk up to the table and just randomly throw a perfect set of dice maybe 10,000 times ......... but to play Craps this way in my opinion is just like choosing a stock to invest in by throwing a dart at the NYSE, Nasdaq & penny stock pages blindfolded

However, If 1 uses the sciences of Dice mechanics to help influence the dice toss, then the edge no longer belongs to the house, but to the person holding the dice ....... for starters, before I walk up to a hard Crapless table, I will review my Bone Tracker results to find out which dice set gives me the most Horn numbers combined with the highest SRR (Sevens per Roll Ratio) ...... in my case, it is the Straight 6's on a 3-4, 3-4 axis

Einstein thinks he has a continuous field theory that avoids 'spooky action at a distance', but the calculation difficulties are very great. He is quite convinced that some day a theory that does not depend on probabilities will be found.

Albert Einstein to Max Born, 1947

 

[HarleyHorn]

Harley, my Grandfather taught me to play Craps. He used to tell me little things, similar to what you posted above. One thing he told me is to ALWAYS bet the field after a 4 was rolled. This is the only time he ever bet the field.

A buddy and I tracked this for quite a long time, maybe 2 years? It hit right at 73%:00hour

I still to this day put $20 in the field after a 4, with very good success! Keep an eye on it, must be something with how they push the dice to people after a 4 is rolled?

Agent 0659 ... very interesting !!! I have never heard your Grandfather's theory, but I will indeed take it to the tables with me, we learn something new everyday ... thanks for sharing !!!

..... however, your Grandfather's theory does have some overlapping properties with my "Mexican Dice" theory ....... too many things made in Mexico do not have good quality control (remember the dice made in the Ocean's 13 movie), even the FAA will not allow airlines to use bolts made in Mexico on airplanes ..... so my "Mexican Dice" theory says that if the dice are not perfect, the normal pyramid distribution of dice will be flattened (and I guess the PC term would be "Outside Dice" )

Normal Dice Distribution Pyramid:

However, studies have shown that if the Dice are not perfect or have been chipped against the table glass, then more Outside Field numbers will occur

..... and this is where I like to watch an RR (Random Roller or what we call Chicken Feeders = CFs) ...... if the dice are hitting Outside more often than the normal Distribution pyramid, then I will start employing an "Iron Cross" betting strategy with an Initial Steep Regression (ISR) & great care ...... the reason is that if the dice are shaved just 30,000th of an inch - or imperfect by that much - then more 2s & 12s will occur, but you will also see more 7's from the 6-1 combination and thus the 7 will occur sooner and more often :com:

so watch out for a table where most of the 7 outs are of the 6-1 variety

 

[AnkAnk]

Thanks for all of your posts Harley. I'll be in vegas next weekend - cant wait to hit the craps tables!!

 

[HarleyHorn]

Good luck AnkAnk !! ......... and remember what the late Dr. Richard Feynman said:

" What I am going to tell you about is what we teach our physics students in the third or fourth year of graduate school.... It is my task to convince you not to turn away because you don't understand it. You see my physics students don't understand it.... That is because I don't understand it. Nobody does."

......... and the best Sports Bars to watch the games - based on most comfortable seats:

1. Hilton

2. Flamingo

3. Sam's Town new sports Book opened this week

 

[AnkAnk]

Good luck

......... and the best Sports Bars to watch the games - based on most comfortable seats:

1. Hilton

2. Flamingo

3. Sam's Town new sports Book opened this week

I love the seats in the sportsbook at the Bellagio but I have never been to the above - thanks! How are the TV's at the Flamingo? Oh - one more question - this will be our first time going to vegas during the football season - how crowded do the sportsbook get? How early will we have to get there to get seats for a 9:00am college football game?

FYI - I like to set the dice in the formation of the "flying V" (three's on top making a V). On the comeout roll I throw the dice with a 6-3 on top

 

[HarleyHorn]

AnkAnk ....... the 3V is probably the most tested & most reliable set around ....... although I do not use it much now, I did use the 3V to toss a documented 50 roll to get listed on Golden Touch Craps World Record list, even though they have me in the wrong category as I should be #3 on the "No 7s Champion" list since I never threw a 7 until some "idiot" threw in cash and my dice hit his cash messing up my roll ..... anyway, 4 of those members on that list were also part of our Tunica Craps Gang this past week

http://www.goldentouchcraps.com/worldrecords.php4

I would say you are probably safe for an early Saturday 9 am game just getting there 10 or 15 minutes before game time ...... and if it is not 1 of the marquee games, make sure you ask the book supervisor if he would switch one of the TVs to your game

However, if you leave your seat, be prepared to lose it unless you take a pencil, bunch of betting sheets and a near full drink to leave in your chair ... or better yet, a chair-body guard

 

[Keyser Soze]

Hey Harley..........

How did you and the gang do in Tunica?

 

[StevieD]

..... and this is where I like to watch an RR (Random Roller or what we call Chicken Feeders = CFs) ...... if the dice are hitting Outside more often than the normal Distribution pyramid, then I will start employing an "Iron Cross" betting strategy with an Initial Steep Regression (ISR) & great care ...... the reason is that if the dice are shaved just 30,000th of an inch - or imperfect by that much - then more 2s & 12s will occur, but you will also see more 7's from the 6-1 combination and thus the 7 will occur sooner and more often :com:

so watch out for a table where most of the 7 outs are of the 6-1 variety

Very interesting. I just came back from Atlantic City and did pretty good. But I used to play all the time at Mohegan Sun. I notice they have more crap numbers thrown than 6's and 8's. I am on a long losing streak at Mohegan. So much so that I started going to Foxwoods instead. Foxwoods dice appear to be more even, IE not as many crap numbers thrown. Same in AC. Just thinking out loud hear because I have felt for a long time that Mohegan has crooked dice. Anybody else play Mohegan and notice the amount of crap numbers thrown?

 

[c note]

harley or other posters i do have a question for you. I play craps at the local indian casino (turning stone). I usually play the pass line with max odds as well as up to 3 come bets with max odds (more if tabel is hot and take them down when needed). One session a dealer told me that I do not have to place my money in the come box and wait for the next number to be rolled. She said I could just tell the dealers I want to place the come bet on what number (or numbers) I want and tell them what odds I want on the number. I tried to do this in AC and they said they dont allow that. I am wondering what is the advantage or disadvantage to the player to just place the come bets down on the numbers you want with max odds instead of waiting for the dice to determine your come bet number. Also what is the advantage or disadvantge of doing the come bets this way instead of just playing the number outright by itself. The tables there are 3x, 4x and 5x odds.

I appreciate everyones insight. Thanks