Boxing 5/8 - 5/9
- Thread starter Ghost Kid
- Start date
On the 30 or 60 day rule..
Went into place when Tito Trinidad vs Hopkins was delayed b/c of 9/11. Millions of dollars were wagered on that bout.
On 9-15-2001 the Bernard Hopkins vs Felix Trinidad bout was rescheduled at Madison Square Garden, New York City, New York to 9-29-2001 because of what took place on 9-11. The bout fell within 30 days and likley was the first major instance or even the event leading to the 30 day rule modifiucation.
Since 2002 Boxing wagering has taken a turn where instead of one or two promotions a month available to wager on there are often up to 15 bouts offered per week on wagering menus. The emergence of Mixed Martial Arts events has cut into boxing venues and limited TV airtime slots.
If Hopkins vs Trinidad 2001 PPV was post 2004, there would have been no way to reschedule a bout of that magnitude within 30 days or even 60 days of the original date.
Now couple sides to this. Ex: Guy takes +200 and lines now +120...he wants his bet. The other guy that lays -180 wants it refunded so he can go back and lay -140 2 to 30 days before the reschedule.
Next problem.... true story.... unamed books purposely or just plain ignorantly put out new lines on bouts with Wrong start dates. Bout gets moved, rescheduled. or simply has wrong date and you have a 7 day, 14 day, 30 day or whatever time frame. Real good way to find out who the players like on the books end and downright disgusting .....they take their bets...then pull bad date or venue bullshit. Happened to me a 1/2 dozen times. The book cancels all ur bets at
say -130 and reopens at -275 on same guy a day or 2 later for a bout that was moved from say May 9th to June 1st. Gotta belkive people would bitch about that if they like money.
The big question you have to ask urself is... Would you rather have money tied up on a bet that you obviously wanted because you bet it and believe it will win...unless ur a complete and total degenerate ...afterall ur in this to make money I hope... or do you want it cancelled and want to only go lay 245 cents the worst of it or even bet the opposite side because they backed you off it.
I personally would want my money tied up rather than lose the wager at the number I played it at.
And honestly... a player shouldnt be in a position where he has so much of his posted up bankroll in action to where it makes a significant difference if the bet is pushed back 30 days. Just as debatable, but I'd venture to say majority of players I see playing don't have that problem.
And 1 more reason behind this l... take a look at how many bouts are on again off again when a guy misses weight. Fightnews and the AP had several instances of reporting bouts were cancelled, only to have books get 100 emails citing it, then the bout gets put back on after the promotors sharpen their pencils and the players that win the canceled bets want to get paid and the guys who lost go fire away with the refunded money on something else.
You need time frame set in stone on the site and this has worked best dating back to 9/11.
Some notable big money bouts that got pushed back off top of my head where it was pain in ass....maybe not the best examples, but one's I do recall that fell into the above type situations.
Jean-Marc Mormeck vs David Haye
Sergio Mora vs Kassim Ouma
Mike Tyson vs Clifford Etienne
Vargas vs Mayorga
I could go on 4ever. There are at least 2 cancellations per week. And in MMA it is never ending.
Only hopen this gives a little insight to why the time rules were put into place. Just showing a different side. Biggst Dillema is the actual amount of days a cancellation should be valid for.
excuse the typos and mispells, but its aftre midnight.
Hope this sheds a littlelight on the topic.Good luck and may all your bets be winners.
Went into place when Tito Trinidad vs Hopkins was delayed b/c of 9/11. Millions of dollars were wagered on that bout.
On 9-15-2001 the Bernard Hopkins vs Felix Trinidad bout was rescheduled at Madison Square Garden, New York City, New York to 9-29-2001 because of what took place on 9-11. The bout fell within 30 days and likley was the first major instance or even the event leading to the 30 day rule modifiucation.
Since 2002 Boxing wagering has taken a turn where instead of one or two promotions a month available to wager on there are often up to 15 bouts offered per week on wagering menus. The emergence of Mixed Martial Arts events has cut into boxing venues and limited TV airtime slots.
If Hopkins vs Trinidad 2001 PPV was post 2004, there would have been no way to reschedule a bout of that magnitude within 30 days or even 60 days of the original date.
Now couple sides to this. Ex: Guy takes +200 and lines now +120...he wants his bet. The other guy that lays -180 wants it refunded so he can go back and lay -140 2 to 30 days before the reschedule.
Next problem.... true story.... unamed books purposely or just plain ignorantly put out new lines on bouts with Wrong start dates. Bout gets moved, rescheduled. or simply has wrong date and you have a 7 day, 14 day, 30 day or whatever time frame. Real good way to find out who the players like on the books end and downright disgusting .....they take their bets...then pull bad date or venue bullshit. Happened to me a 1/2 dozen times. The book cancels all ur bets at
say -130 and reopens at -275 on same guy a day or 2 later for a bout that was moved from say May 9th to June 1st. Gotta belkive people would bitch about that if they like money.
The big question you have to ask urself is... Would you rather have money tied up on a bet that you obviously wanted because you bet it and believe it will win...unless ur a complete and total degenerate ...afterall ur in this to make money I hope... or do you want it cancelled and want to only go lay 245 cents the worst of it or even bet the opposite side because they backed you off it.
I personally would want my money tied up rather than lose the wager at the number I played it at.
And honestly... a player shouldnt be in a position where he has so much of his posted up bankroll in action to where it makes a significant difference if the bet is pushed back 30 days. Just as debatable, but I'd venture to say majority of players I see playing don't have that problem.
And 1 more reason behind this l... take a look at how many bouts are on again off again when a guy misses weight. Fightnews and the AP had several instances of reporting bouts were cancelled, only to have books get 100 emails citing it, then the bout gets put back on after the promotors sharpen their pencils and the players that win the canceled bets want to get paid and the guys who lost go fire away with the refunded money on something else.
You need time frame set in stone on the site and this has worked best dating back to 9/11.
Some notable big money bouts that got pushed back off top of my head where it was pain in ass....maybe not the best examples, but one's I do recall that fell into the above type situations.
Jean-Marc Mormeck vs David Haye
Sergio Mora vs Kassim Ouma
Mike Tyson vs Clifford Etienne
Vargas vs Mayorga
I could go on 4ever. There are at least 2 cancellations per week. And in MMA it is never ending.
Only hopen this gives a little insight to why the time rules were put into place. Just showing a different side. Biggst Dillema is the actual amount of days a cancellation should be valid for.
excuse the typos and mispells, but its aftre midnight.
Hope this sheds a littlelight on the topic.Good luck and may all your bets be winners.
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I actually wish all books would have had a 60 day rule for years. The best example I can give was quite a few years back when I bet the living hell out of Ishe Smith over David Estrada. I had enough to win $2500 on Smith, which at the time was a monster bet for me. The numbers ranged from -130 to about -170. The fight was cancelled and rescheduled for a little bit after. The line reopened at either -350 or -400 because they saw where the smart money was and adjusted. Needless to say Smith outclassed Estrada and I wasn't exactly happy. I helped form the adjusted line.
BTW- It's not the books responsibility to make sure you have enough $$$ for your future bets if you overbet something. If you have your money tied up I am sure they would love for you to have to send them more. This is a bussiness afterall.
....
I actually wish all books would have had a 60 day rule for years. The best example I can give was quite a few years back when I bet the living hell out of Ishe Smith over David Estrada. I had enough to win $2500 on Smith, which at the time was a monster bet for me. The numbers ranged from -130 to about -170. The fight was cancelled and rescheduled for a little bit after. The line reopened at either -350 or -400 because they saw where the smart money was and adjusted. Needless to say Smith outclassed Estrada and I wasn't exactly happy. I helped form the adjusted line.
BTW- It's not the books responsibility to make sure you have enough $$$ for your future bets if you overbet something. If you have your money tied up I am sure they would love for you to have to send them more. This is a bussiness afterall.
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Any books I do any kind of work with refunded Beibut Shumenov vs Alejandro Berrio @ 2:20 PM PST today.
..and last weeks Chris Burton vs Franklin Egobi bout is being worked out and could fall within next 30 days if Franklin Egobi gets his visa paperwork correct.
..and last weeks Chris Burton vs Franklin Egobi bout is being worked out and could fall within next 30 days if Franklin Egobi gets his visa paperwork correct.
- Jun 23, 2008
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Oddessa and MayorgaFan,
I very much respect both of your opinions and it is nice to get a perspective from the other side. I also appreciate, Oddessa, that you took time to write quite a lengthy response. I am learning daily here.
Maybe I came on a bit strong. But here is another thing to consider.
In cases like Vargas-Mayorga, Hopkins-Trinidad, Etienne-Tyson - these are all big fights where the opponents remained the same and the fights were pushed back a bit. Certainly, I agree with you. If a player got a good line on the fighter he wanted, tied up cash is better than losing the line. No question.
Same deal with the more recent Yohnny Perez-Silence Mabuza fight. This fight has been rescheduled now and I am happy with the line I have. My money is held up, and I have no problem with it.
My issue is with fights like the most recent Ustinov fight (he was supposed to fight Batchelder) and this weekend's Shumenov bout. In both these cases, A NEW OPPONENT was found and the FIGHT WENT ON AS SCHEDULED.
Clearly, in these cases, the fights won't be rescheduled in 30 to 60 days. Ustinov won that fight on 3/21/09 (against Polley) - the Batchelder fight is scrapped and this replaced it. So why hold the money up?
Shumenov is not going to fight Berrio in the next 60 days. Logically, the Mitchell bout is replacing it.
I realize the books are very busy - there has to be some general rules. I understand. But I think there should be a a better way to deal with fights on a case by case basis.
Again, I really appreciate the information - it helps me to understand both sides.
Good luck this weekend everyone.
:toast:
I very much respect both of your opinions and it is nice to get a perspective from the other side. I also appreciate, Oddessa, that you took time to write quite a lengthy response. I am learning daily here.
Maybe I came on a bit strong. But here is another thing to consider.
In cases like Vargas-Mayorga, Hopkins-Trinidad, Etienne-Tyson - these are all big fights where the opponents remained the same and the fights were pushed back a bit. Certainly, I agree with you. If a player got a good line on the fighter he wanted, tied up cash is better than losing the line. No question.
Same deal with the more recent Yohnny Perez-Silence Mabuza fight. This fight has been rescheduled now and I am happy with the line I have. My money is held up, and I have no problem with it.
My issue is with fights like the most recent Ustinov fight (he was supposed to fight Batchelder) and this weekend's Shumenov bout. In both these cases, A NEW OPPONENT was found and the FIGHT WENT ON AS SCHEDULED.
Clearly, in these cases, the fights won't be rescheduled in 30 to 60 days. Ustinov won that fight on 3/21/09 (against Polley) - the Batchelder fight is scrapped and this replaced it. So why hold the money up?
Shumenov is not going to fight Berrio in the next 60 days. Logically, the Mitchell bout is replacing it.
I realize the books are very busy - there has to be some general rules. I understand. But I think there should be a a better way to deal with fights on a case by case basis.
Again, I really appreciate the information - it helps me to understand both sides.
Good luck this weekend everyone.
:toast:
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Regarding the 30-60 day rule...do not forget as longer your money is blocked as longer they can invest the (your) cash... I think that is key here... You can not imagine how much money they make out of it... e.g. you have 10.000 customers with 10.000? average cash position... a sportsbook would simply earn 3.500.000? on interst yield.p.a. ...
But anyway I got Berrio at +475 and I think this would have been definatly a value bet... but...
Regarding Tarver... at the beginning you got Tarver wins y KO at +1200 or even higher especially the singel round betting was awsome at 5D you got up to +21500 I put some money on those singel rounds + KO as I think there sould be value... (maybe it works out at they figth on my bday :toast: )
But anyway I got Berrio at +475 and I think this would have been definatly a value bet... but...
Regarding Tarver... at the beginning you got Tarver wins y KO at +1200 or even higher especially the singel round betting was awsome at 5D you got up to +21500 I put some money on those singel rounds + KO as I think there sould be value... (maybe it works out at they figth on my bday :toast: )
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I can understand your reasoning on if a guy fights for sure. Very few fighters are going to fight someone and then fight again within 60 days. Although it happens here and there.
- Nov 14, 2008
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Maxboxing Gabe Montoya is predicting Rusal TKO11.
Rusal is a big dog in this fight but be careful, I noticed that Gabe likes to predict surprises.
http://www.maxboxing.com/Gabriel/Montoya0508m09.asp
gabriel made a good call on ola afalobi?
is that how you spell it, the dude that KO'd enzo mac
---
aaron williams now the favorite at -140
i wish i could play him this week, but i better take a break :SIB
"yawn" pablo SUX
is that how you spell it, the dude that KO'd enzo mac
---
aaron williams now the favorite at -140
i wish i could play him this week, but i better take a break :SIB
"yawn" pablo SUX
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- Nov 14, 2008
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Yes he did. But he also took de Leon over Green two weeks ago. He is very knowledgeable guy but I sense tendency in him to pick a dog.
- Jun 23, 2008
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Chad Dawson has no respect for Antonio Tarver -- seriously
http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/5/8/869113/chad-dawson-has-no-respect-for
Dirt McGirt ! The kiss of death !
:nono: :mj07:
http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/5/8/869113/chad-dawson-has-no-respect-for
Dirt McGirt ! The kiss of death !
:nono: :mj07:
- Apr 8, 2008
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Maybe Chad will look for a KO. I agree about McGirt but I have to say, that Eddie Mustufa Muhammad frequently rides the 2nd place horse as a trainer, too. But Dawson has been with him for a while and what a horse Dawson is - so even Eddie probably can't screw it up.
- Jun 23, 2008
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- Apr 8, 2008
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Probably the underlying issue was Shu had 7 fights and he was fighting a former world champ that might take his head off. They should have figured that out longer than 24 hours before the opening bell.
Thx Odessa and Mayofan. Appreciate the input. It's no shakes for me. Just something to whine about. It doesn't effect my play one way or the other. Ghost made a good pt about the Ustinov play. The fight was cancelled so there really isn't a valid reason to hold the money other than to have guaranteed dough in their pockets temporarily. I have no issue with two books not grading the UK hvy wt fight if it's just a visa issue. Numerous times I have had no action called after getting an early good line to later have the lines moved...that's a BS sht move on the books part but what are you going to do.:shrug: Thx again!
I added the over on the Italian fight today 9 1/2...wasn't going to play it but it looks solid....on paper :mj09:
I added the over on the Italian fight today 9 1/2...wasn't going to play it but it looks solid....on paper :mj09:
Thanks Olddirtyfighter.
IMO, from Rusal's record he looks like a protected fighter that has building up a record on tomato cans. That doesn't mean he can't fight, but now he is going from C & D level competion to A level competion and he will have to adjust to box the fight of his life. Guess we will only how good he is until after the fight.
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I just checked the Ustinov bout to be sure I handled it right. So many bouts they sometimes slip my mind, but I sent the cancellation notice out on 3-19-2009 at 12:54 PST there when learning of Batchledors cut. I keep pretty good records in case I make an error.
I can;t speak for most of the books you guys probably play at, but I do all I can to stay on top of it.
Biggest problem is the majority of books are simple copy and paste books. They dont wouldnt know a Danny Williams from Danny Partridge.
They just copy what everyone else has up. Typos, bad start times, and so on. If you ever bet an under/over 9.5 and it ends at start/finish of round 10 you would know what frustration is. The books that take the easy road and dont have someone with a brain handling the fights usually cant understand the concept of the 1/2 Round.
I lurk the forums here late night ...usually thursday or friday but better if reached by email. Several guys here are in contact with me if you have issues similar wher you need a co-signer or official results and so on.
It is frustrating without a doubt. I fight tooth and nail on weekly basis with bookmakers over the most ridiculous stuff.
Mayorgafan and I are in contact at least 4-5 days a week. Our friendship goes beyond just bizness, we are longtime friends.
Recent brutal example I got jobbed on.....
Guinn KO'd a guy in 2 minutes a week or so ago..all money was on dog..line moved from -600my opener.... to less than -400....so I waited to bet the fight at about 12 mins to post to bet Guinn at -380ish ? and they cancelled my bet 25 minutes after it was made because they found a result at 23 minutes after I made the legit bet. They stiffed of course. But I ate it because I didnt wanna lose the out. Just ridiculous shit that goes on , so I feel ur pain on both sides of the window.
I am also in regular contact with many solid books including 5dimes and even though I dont dont do work for them, 'T' and I are good friends if somethings ever misgraded.
And last off topic rule #1...dont past post. Even if you get under the radar... and they let it slide...its simply not worth it. You always get caught even if you seem to get away with it..you get flagged. If you get booted from one shop, good chance you'll get booted from shops that communicate.
Glad you guys didnt take offense to the long post last night on why we implimented the 30 or 60 day rules. I agree if new opponent is scheduled, that bouts should be refunded immediately upon solid confirmation. We all knowBoxrec and even fightnews has been wrong on many bouts, but in the end it gets worked out.
All the best and good luck.
I can;t speak for most of the books you guys probably play at, but I do all I can to stay on top of it.
Biggest problem is the majority of books are simple copy and paste books. They dont wouldnt know a Danny Williams from Danny Partridge.
They just copy what everyone else has up. Typos, bad start times, and so on. If you ever bet an under/over 9.5 and it ends at start/finish of round 10 you would know what frustration is. The books that take the easy road and dont have someone with a brain handling the fights usually cant understand the concept of the 1/2 Round.
I lurk the forums here late night ...usually thursday or friday but better if reached by email. Several guys here are in contact with me if you have issues similar wher you need a co-signer or official results and so on.
It is frustrating without a doubt. I fight tooth and nail on weekly basis with bookmakers over the most ridiculous stuff.
Mayorgafan and I are in contact at least 4-5 days a week. Our friendship goes beyond just bizness, we are longtime friends.
Recent brutal example I got jobbed on.....
Guinn KO'd a guy in 2 minutes a week or so ago..all money was on dog..line moved from -600my opener.... to less than -400....so I waited to bet the fight at about 12 mins to post to bet Guinn at -380ish ? and they cancelled my bet 25 minutes after it was made because they found a result at 23 minutes after I made the legit bet. They stiffed of course. But I ate it because I didnt wanna lose the out. Just ridiculous shit that goes on , so I feel ur pain on both sides of the window.
I am also in regular contact with many solid books including 5dimes and even though I dont dont do work for them, 'T' and I are good friends if somethings ever misgraded.
And last off topic rule #1...dont past post. Even if you get under the radar... and they let it slide...its simply not worth it. You always get caught even if you seem to get away with it..you get flagged. If you get booted from one shop, good chance you'll get booted from shops that communicate.
Glad you guys didnt take offense to the long post last night on why we implimented the 30 or 60 day rules. I agree if new opponent is scheduled, that bouts should be refunded immediately upon solid confirmation. We all knowBoxrec and even fightnews has been wrong on many bouts, but in the end it gets worked out.
All the best and good luck.
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- Jun 23, 2008
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Oddessa you're a class act.
Very fair assessment, and great info for all of us boxing junkies at madjack.
Sorry to hear that story about the Guinn fight. You were definitely on the right side on that one - Guinn smoked that kid from Louisiana. Nothing more frustrating than calling it correct, and not being rewarded for it. I feel your pain.
Sometimes it is difficult to find these results late on a Saturday Night....Awesome of you to stop by and lend a hand.
Best of luck to you and everyone this weekend!
:toast:
Very fair assessment, and great info for all of us boxing junkies at madjack.
Sorry to hear that story about the Guinn fight. You were definitely on the right side on that one - Guinn smoked that kid from Louisiana. Nothing more frustrating than calling it correct, and not being rewarded for it. I feel your pain.
Sometimes it is difficult to find these results late on a Saturday Night....Awesome of you to stop by and lend a hand.
Best of luck to you and everyone this weekend!
:toast:
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- Jun 23, 2008
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Weights from Texas:
Craig McEwan 162.5 vs. Brian Vera 163
Weights from Chimkent
Beibut Shumenov 174 vs Byron Mitchell ???
Roman Karmazin 161 vs Luis Augusto Dos Santos 160.5
DeMarcus Corley 139 vs Sidney Siqueira 140
Promoter: KZ Event Productions Inc.
Venue: Khadjimukan Stadium, Chimkent, Kazakhstan
Note: Byron Mitchell is still on his way to Chimkent. He will weigh-in tomorrow.
:mj07:
Mitchell is going to probably land 3 minutes before his walkout....good luck to him in that one....
Craig McEwan 162.5 vs. Brian Vera 163
Weights from Chimkent
Beibut Shumenov 174 vs Byron Mitchell ???
Roman Karmazin 161 vs Luis Augusto Dos Santos 160.5
DeMarcus Corley 139 vs Sidney Siqueira 140
Promoter: KZ Event Productions Inc.
Venue: Khadjimukan Stadium, Chimkent, Kazakhstan
Note: Byron Mitchell is still on his way to Chimkent. He will weigh-in tomorrow.
:mj07:
Mitchell is going to probably land 3 minutes before his walkout....good luck to him in that one....
