Do U think gay couples should be able to adopt?

SixFive

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AR182, I didn't mention the Bible in my post, but since u did, if u would like me to, I can show u what the Word says about gays. People are always saying that the Bible says we are not to judge, but that is only partially correct. We are not to judge whether or not a person is going to Heaven, that is reserved for Judgement day. However, the Bible does teach to us judge actions and what is right and wrong. I think we all struggle with things that are wrong, and I think homosexuality is a sin. However, I will say that I don't think it's any worse than any of a multitude of other sins.

I'll be darned if I'm going to "accept" any lifestyle that I think is wrong. I don't have to be tolerant or accepting of anything, and I really don't care what others think. I'll never be politically correct, and I'll never accept the gay lifestyle as ok and certainly never agree with gay adoptions.

I still say that homosexuality is a choice. If sexuality was a choice, then do I choose to be heterosexual? All the homosexuals that I personally know have had heterosexual relationships. How can u just switch back and forth?? That must be a choice.
 

MadJack

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i didn't read all the replies because i don't have time but.....

aren't there plenty of man/woman, husband/wife marriages out there looking to adopt?

should a gay couple get the chance to adopt a child before the married male/female?

are there gay couples taking away the chance to adopt from the traditional married couple?

you bet there are.
 

MadJack

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if you were on your death-bed and had to make a decision of letting your kid go to rosie o'donnell or a married man/woman, who would you choose to give your child to?

why should rosie, because she's 'rosie', take away the chance for a man/woman because SHE wants that particular kid?

NO, there are plenty of traditional married couples out there that want to adopt.

JMO

last resort? gay couple? i guess, but last resort only.
 

AR182

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Jack,

I believe that there are more kids looking to be adopted,than there are couples looking to adopt.
I read someplace(can't remember where)that the gay couples are so happy to be able to adopt,that they are willing to take on the problem child,while the heterosexual couple are more selective.


SixFive,I respect your beliefs.I am glad that you don't worry if your beliefs are politically correct or not.I.too,don't worry if I am polically correct.
Religion is not my strong point,haven't practiced it in many years,but aren't there different versions of the Bible?
 
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MadJack

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I was thinking primarily about infants.

i really don't know much about this topic (shouldn't have even gotten involved) but aren't infants a premium and tough to get?

does rosie get infants? does she get her 'pick'?

just wondering.

i think that would be wrong.
 

djv

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Not sure have not given it much tought. But would hope the guys get the girls. And the girls get the boys. Then let-em wish they never did it. Of course who suffers. The kids. So thats not good idea.
 

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Coming from the female aspect of things,children LIVE what they LEARN....Thats a fact a proven one........

HE HATE ME: I agree with you! except for 1 thing,:nooo: Not all female atheletes are big boned and ugly yes you are right there are lesbians in the league I play in but they aren't after the straight girls thats for sure.They don't go out trying to change others they stick with there own,they happen to be pretty cool would I ever let them raise my children whom are almost grown HELL NO............ As for my opinion as if its not clear already NO WAY! How could 2 gay men raise a football player LOL
 

hello there

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Coming from the female aspect of things,children LIVE what they LEARN....Thats a fact a proven one........ ~TBONE

Then how come people who are gay had straight parents all their lives and there are gay couples out there who have adopted kids that turn out straight. Shouldn't the kid have turned out gay if he had gay parents who influenced him??? NO, IT'S BECAUSE JUST LIKE US STRAIGHTS, WE NEVER LEARNED HOW TO BE STRAIGHT, THAT'S HOW ARE GENETIC MAKEUP IS WHEN WE WERE BORN, JUST LIKE HOW GAY'S GENETIC MAKEUP MAKES THEM GAY. We did not learn how to be straight. You telling me if you were raised by gays, you would have turned out gay??? NO, you'd still be straight, cause u were BORN that way.
 
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TBONEZ0295

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As far as ROSIE thats a simple one she has the $$$$$$ No offense but you don't have kids they truelly do live what they learn take it from one who knows.
 

djv

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You know I never new how tough it was to adopt. My friend at work tried for over a year, almost two. They gave up. He and his wife. There in China right now getting there 18 month child they adopted there. It took about 7 to 8 months. I know this has nothing to do with gays. But if streight folks have that much trouble. How the hell do gays get a chance. Or are we talking about just a few with the big bucks.
 

TBONEZ0295

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OK OK I don't know how I am letting myself get sucked into this one but here goes,
Your 10 year old adopted son gets a ride one day to school by DAD #1 the next day DAD #2 drops him off, he gets out of the car and has kids mocking him from everywhere being called names FAG and probally much worse, he is tourtured by classmates beaten up by the school bullies and feels like a total misfit GET A GRIP! this is NO WAY to intentionally bring a child up. Todays youth will kill that kid .

djv: unfortunately $$$$$$ talks once again thats just the way it is

My thought how many of you that are debating this issue even have kids :shrug: right, thats what I thought
 

hello there

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he gets out of the car and has kids mocking him from everywhere being called names FAG and probally much worse, he is tourtured by classmates beaten up by the school bullies and feels like a total misfit GET A GRIP! this is NO WAY to intentionally bring a child up. Todays youth will kill that kid . ~Tbone

Don't blame the gay parents, blame today's stupid ignorant youth, and their dumb ass parents who hasn't brought them up properly enough to not discriminate.
 
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Jack,

I went looking quickly for statistics on it, but I know before there is a big discrepancy on which babies couples are looking to adopt. I mean that here in DC and other cities in particular that have perhaps elevated levels of drug use among some pregnant mothers; those babies are not 'in demand.' Plus, there is a lot of bureaucratic stuff that goes into adopting american infants. That's why so many people look overseas, even though it probably costs them an additional $10k or more. So basically you could probably have close to an equal number or babies looking to be adopted and parents wanting to adopt, but it doesn't necessarily mean that those parents want to adopt the available babies. That sounds callous but I'm trying to word it clearly. So really I don't think that gay couples would be taking babies away from willing hetero couples.

Part of my answer saying it'd be fine for gay couples to adopt is that I think people have such a small, centralized view of the county and the different areas and how they're affected by legislation. For example, and I hope this isn't taken the wrong way, but a person in Wise, VA might have a different view on pro-life/pro-choice or gay adoption over someone in DC because they're not walking the streets of a city with young kids stealing and whatnot with no direction in life. All some people grow up with is the local girl who gets knocked up at the drivein movie theatre and has everyone in her family to help her raise the kid. Some other places the new kid is just thrown on the street or even worse left for dead somewhere.

I don't think gay adoption is really the best option by any stretch of the imagination, but it's better than some other options and people need to step back and be a little more realistic about what's happening. It's not cut and dry like -- if the kid doesnt go to a gay couple, he's going to go toa lovign heterosexual couple. I just don't believe it works that way, atleast not where I live and grew up.
 

JSMOOTH

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hello there said:
For people who are against gay adoptions.....


Gays don't choose to be gays, they were born that way.

That's some of the biggest bunch of horshat I've ever heard. I've heard it before and it always makes me laugh.
MJ said it best.....there are plenty of man/woman couples that have been waiting for years to adopt. These people are screened, tested and have their homes visited by the adoption agencies numorous times to ensure that proper, comfortable living will be provided.
 

fatdaddycool

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Ar182, Blitz, et al...thank you for your heartfelt reply. With no better way to put it, I just want to say that is not the point I was trying to make and I let the heat of the moment get the better of me. Unfortunately, I made some statements that , although genuine and heartfelt, should not be in a forum such as ours. That is/was in the past and I am sorry that the statements made "pulled on the heart strings" so to speak and really have no weight in a public forum. That being said I thank you for your replies gentlemen.

Senor capper, for someone as devout as you seem to be you certainly are well versed on pornographic expression, I mean maybe its me but I think I hear something...it certainly can't be an educated point going by....thanks for coming...please check your ticket at the door.

Raymond, no offense meant....but
How could 2 gay men raise a football player LOL
are you kidding me????????.....How could a gay man play quaterback for the San Francisco 49'ers. Although I enjoy your posts in the softball team thread I have to say this one is utterly ridiculous....you have absolutely nothing to base your statements on and I am sorry but I do not agree.
 

hello there

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You guys are spewing bullshit. I back up my stuff with reasons and explanations. Where the heck are your reasons to back up your statements????
 

fatdaddycool

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Coming from the female aspect of things,children LIVE what they LEARN....Thats a fact a proven one.......

Can you please supply a rudimentary bibliography that you are gathering your proven facts from?

Your 10 year old adopted son gets a ride one day to school by DAD #1 the next day DAD #2 drops him off, he gets out of the car and has kids mocking him from everywhere being called names FAG and probally much worse, he is tourtured by classmates beaten up by the school bullies and feels like a total misfit GET A GRIP! this is NO WAY to intentionally bring a child up. Todays youth will kill that kid .

OK now for a second just humor me....substitute your soon to be gay child for an already fat one born of fat parents.....shall we screen with extreme prejudice fat people also???...No....ok ...join me again on another sojourn and substitute little Elton for a black child adopted by white parents or vice versa...shall we deny Little Liberace a chance at a home life again??????? Damn right....right??? Because we have the Bible on our side...right
I'll be darned if I'm going to "accept" any lifestyle that I think is wrong. I don't have to be tolerant or accepting of anything, and I really don't care what others think. I'll never be politically correct, and I'll never accept the gay lifestyle as ok and certainly never agree with gay adoptions.

Heck yea the Bible says turn the other cheek, unless of course it is inconvenient for you, then turn on them like dogs and hole the Good Book high as this is your backstop, your mattress when the dregs of society ask the question that you don't understand.

The answer to the question is simple, all of you protecting the wealth of the children by any means, be it by the wall of prejudice or the stink of ignorance...ask Jack for my e-mail and we can talk about the Big Brothers program you are currently in, or the last time you participated in anything your own children weren't involved in. I have a soon to be 18 year old daughter that I raised my damn self, until she was 7 when her mother showed back up....guess what she was and is straight....Spare me the prejudices and think of the children...other than your own of course.
 

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This is an article that I had done reseach on for my first year of Law school, it involved a gay couple wanting to adopt and I had to present a case. I used this article as my reference...




Like families headed by heterosexual parents, lesbian and gay parents and their children are a diverse group (Martin, 1993). Unlike heterosexual parents and their children, however, lesbian and gay parents and their children are often subject to prejudice because of sexual orientation that turns judges, legislators, professionals, and the public against them, frequently resulting in negative outcomes such as loss of physical custody, restrictions on visitation, and prohibitions against adoption (Falk, 1989; Editors of the Harvard Law Review, 1990). As with all socially stigmatized groups, the beliefs held generally in society about lesbians and gay men are often not based in personal experience, but are instead culturally transmitted (Herek, 1991). The purpose of this summary of research findings on lesbian and gay parents and their children is to assist psychologists and other professionals to evaluate widespread beliefs in the light of empirical data and in this way ameliorate the negative effects of unwarranted prejudice.

Because many beliefs about lesbian and gay parents and their children are open to empirical test, psychological research can evaluate their accuracy. Systematic research comparing lesbian and gay adults to heterosexual adults only began in the late 1950s, and research comparing children of gay and lesbian parents with those of heterosexual parents is of a more recent vintage. Research on lesbian and gay adults began with Evelyn Hooker's landmark study (1957) and culminated with the declassification of homosexuality as a mental disorder in 1973 (Gonsiorek, 1991). Case reports on children of gay and lesbian parents began to appear in the psychiatric literature in the early 1970s (e.g., Osman, 1972; Weeks, Derdeyn, & Langman, 1975) and have continued to appear (e.g., Agbayewa, 1984). Beginning with the pioneering work of Martin and Lyon (1972), first person and fictionalized descriptions of life in lesbian mother families have also become available (e.g., Alpert, 1988; Clausen, 1985; Jullion, 1985; Mager, 1975; Perreault, 1975; Pollock & Vaughn, 1987; Rafkin, 1990). Systematic research on the children of lesbian and gay parents did not, however, begin to appear in major professional journals until 1978, and most of the available research has been published more recently.

As this summary will show, the results of existing research comparing gay and lesbian parents to heterosexual parents and children of gay or lesbian parents to children of heterosexual parents are quite uniform: common sterotypes are not supported by the data.

Without denying the clarity of results to date, it is important also for psychologists and other professionals to be aware that research in this area has presented a variety of methodological challenges, not all of which have been surmounted in every study. As is true in any area of research, questions have been raised with regard to sampling issues, statistical power, and other technical matters (e.g., Belcastro, Gramlich, Nicholson, Price, & Wilson, 1993); no individual study is entirely invincible to such criticism.

One criticism of this body of research (Belcastro et al., 1993) has been that the research lacks external validity because it may not be representative of the larger population of lesbian and gay parents. This criticism is not justified, because nobody knows the actual composition of the entire population of lesbian mothers, gay fathers, or their children (many of whom choose to remain hidden) and hence researchers cannot possible evaluate the degree to which particular samples do or do not represent the population. In the long run, it is not the results obtained from any one specific sample, but the accumulation of findings from many different samples that will be most meaningful.



Research in this area has also been criticized for using poorly matched or no control groups in designs that call for such controls. Particularly notable in this category has been the tendency in some studies to compare development among children of a group of divorced lesbian mothers, many of whom are living with lesbian partners, to that among children of a group of divorced heterosexual mothers who are not currently living with heterosexual partners. It will be important for future research to disentangle maternal sexual orientation from maternal status as partnered or unpartnered.

Other criticisms have been that most studies have involved relatively small samples, that there have been inadequacies in assessment procedures employed in some studies, and that the classification of parents as lesbian, gay, or heterosexual has sometimes been problematic (e.g., some women classified by researchers as lesbian might be regarded as bisexual by other observers). It is significant, however, that even with all the questions and/or limitations that may characterize research in the area, none of the published research suggests conclusions different from those that will be summarized below.

This summary consists of four sections. In the first, results of research on lesbian and gay adults (and parents) are summarized. In the second section, a summary of results from research comparing children of lesbian and gay parents with those of heterosexual parents or with established norms is presented. The third section summarizes research on heterogeneity among lesbian and gay families with children. The fourth section provides a brief conclusion.

A. Lesbian and Gay Parents

One belief that often underlies both judicial decision-making in custody litigation and public policies governing foster care and adoption has been the belief that lesbians and gay men are not fit to be parents. In particular, courts have sometimes assumed that gay men and lesbians are mentally ill, that lesbians are less maternal than heterosexual women, and that lesbians' and gay men's relationships with sexual partners leave little time for ongoing parent-child interactions (Editors of the Harvard Law Review, 1990). Results of research to date have failed to confirm any of these beliefs (Falk, 1989, 1994; Patterson, 1994b, 1995b, 1996).

Mental Health of Lesbians and Gay Men

The psychiatric, psychological, and social-work professions do not consider homosexual orientation to be a mental disorder. More than 20 years ago, the American Psychiatric Association removed "homosexuality" from its list of mental disorders, stating that "homosexuality per se implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social or vocational capabilities" (American Psychiatric Association, 1980). In 1975, the American Psychological Association took the same position and urged all mental health professionals to help dispel the stigma of mental illness that had long been associated with homosexual orientation (American Psychological Association, 1975). The National Association of Social Workers has a similar policy (National Association of Social Workers, 1994).

The decision to remove homosexual orientation from the list of mental disorders reflects the results of extensive research, conducted over three decades, showing that homosexual orientation is not a psychological maladjustment (Gonsiorek, 1991; Reiss, 1980; Hart, Roback, Tittler, Weitz, Walston, & McKee, 1978). The social and other circumstances in which lesbians and gay men live, including exposure to widespread prejudice and discrimination, often cause acute distress; but there is no reliable evidence that homosexual orientation per se impairs psychological functioning (Freedman, 1971; Gonsiorek, 1991; Hart et al., 1978; Hooker, 1957; Reiss, 1980).



Fitness of Lesbians and Gay Men as Parents

Beliefs that gay and lesbian adults are not fit parents likewise have no empirical foundation (Cramer, 1986; Falk, 1989; Gibbs, 1988; Patterson, 1996). Lesbian and heterosexual women have not been found to differ markedly either in their overall mental health or in their approaches to child rearing (Kweskin & Cook, 1982; Lyons, 1983; Miller, Jacobsen, & Bigner, 1981; Mucklow & Phelan, 1979; Pagelow, 1980; Rand, Graham, & Rawlings, 1982; Thompson, McCandless, & Strickland, 1971), nor have lesbians' romantic and sexual relationships with other women been found to detract from their ability to care for their children (Pagelow, 1980). Recent evidence suggests that lesbian couples who are parenting together tend to divide household and family labor relatively evenly (Hand, 1991; Patterson, 1995a) and to report
satisfaction with their couple relationships (Koepke, Hare, & Moran, 1992; Patterson, 1995a). Research on gay fathers has similarly found no reason to believe them unfit as parents (Barret & Robinson, 1990; Bigner and Bozett, 1990; Bozett, 1980, 1989).
 

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B. Children of Lesbian and Gay Parents

In addition to judicial concerns about gay and lesbian parents themselves, courts have voiced three major kinds of fears about effects of lesbian or gay parents on children.


The first general concern is that development of sexual identity will be impaired among children of lesbian or gay parents?for instance, that children brought up by gay fathers or lesbian mothers will show disturbances in gender identity and/or in gender role behavior (Falk, 1989; Hitchens & Kirkpatrick, 1985; Kleber, Howell, & Tibbits-Kleber, 1986). It has also been suggested that children brought up by lesbian mothers or gay fathers will themselves become gay or lesbian (Falk, 1989; Kleber et al., 1986).

A second category of concerns involves aspects of children's personal development other than sexual identity (Falk, 1989; Editors of the Harvard Law Review, 1990; Kleber et al., 1986). For example, courts have expressed fears that children in the custody of gay or lesbian parents will be more vulnerable to mental breakdown, will exhibit more adjustment difficulties and behavior problems, and will be less psychologically healthy than children growing up in homes with heterosexual parents.

A third category of specific fears expressed by the courts is that children of lesbian and gay parents may experience difficulties in social relationships (Editors of the Harvard Law Review, 1990; Falk, 1989; Hitchens & Kirkpatrick, 1985). For example, judges have repeatedly expressed concern that children living with lesbian mothers may be stigmatized, teased, or otherwise traumatized by peers. Another common fear is that children living with gay or lesbian parents may be more likely to be sexually abused by the parent or by the parent's friends or acquaintances.

Sexual Identity

Three aspects of sexual identity are considered in the research: gender identity concerns a person's self-identification as male or female; gender-role behavior concerns the extent to which a person's activities, occupations, and the like are regarded by the culture as masculine, feminine, or both; sexual orientation refers to a person's choice of sexual partners--i.e., heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual (Money & Earhardt, 1972; Stein, 1993). To examine the possibility that children in the custody of lesbian mothers or gay fathers experience disruptions of sexual identity, research relevant to each of these three major areas of concern is summarized below.



Gender identity. In studies of children ranging in age from 5 to 14, results of projective testing and related interview procedures have revealed normal development of gender identity among children of lesbian mothers (Green, 1978; Green, Mandel, Hotvedt, Gray, & Smith, 1986; Kirkpatrick, Smith, & Roy, 1981). More direct assessment techniques to assess gender identity have been used by Golombok, Spencer, and Rutter (1983) with the same result; all children in this study reported that they were happy with their gender, and that they had no wish to be a member of the opposite sex. There was no evidence in any of the studies of gender identity difficulties among children of lesbian mothers. No data have been reported in this area for children of gay fathers.

Gender-Role Behavior. A number of studies have examined gender-role behavior among the offspring of lesbian mothers (Golombok et al., 1983; Gottman, 1990; Green, 1978; Hoeffer, 1981; Kirkpatrick et al., 1981; Patterson, 1994a). These studies reported that such behavior among children of lesbian mothers fell within typical limits for conventional sex roles. For instance, Kirkpatrick and her colleagues (1981) found no differences between children of lesbian versus heterosexual mothers in toy preferences, activities, interests, or occupational choices.

Rees (1979) administered the Bem Sex Role Inventory (BSRI) to 24 adolescents, half of whom had divorced lesbian and half of whom had divorced heterosexual mothers. The BSRI yields scores on masculinity and femininity as independent factors and an androgyny score from the ratio of masculinity to femininity. Children of lesbian and heterosexual mothers did not differ on masculinity or on androgyny, but children of lesbian mothers reported greater psychological femininity than did those of heterosexual mothers. This result would seem to run counter to expectations based on stereotypes of lesbians as lacking in femininity, both in their own demeanor and in their likely influences on children.

Sex role behavior of children was also assessed by Green and his colleagues (1986). In interviews with the children, no differences between 56 children of lesbian and 48 children of heterosexual mothers were found with respect to favorite television programs, favorite television characters, or favorite games or toys. There was some indication in interviews with children themselves that the offspring of lesbian mothers had less sex-typed preferences for activities at school and in their neighborhoods than did children of heterosexual mothers. Consistent with this result, lesbian mothers were also more likely than heterosexual mothers to report that their daughters often participated in rough-and-tumble play or occasionally played with "masculine" toys such as trucks or guns; however, they reported no differences in these areas for sons. Lesbian mothers were no more or less likely than heterosexual mothers to report that their children often played with "feminine" toys such as dolls. In both family types, however, children's sex-role behavior was seen as falling within normal limits.

In summary, the research suggests that children of lesbian mothers develop patterns of gender-role behavior that are much like those of other children.

No data are available as yet in this area for children of gay fathers.

Sexual Orientation. A number of investigators have also studied a third component of sexual identity: sexual orientation (Bailey, Bobrow, Wolfe, & Mikach, 1995; Bozett, 1980, 1982, 1987, 1989; Gottman, 1990; Golombok et al., 1983; Green, 1978; Huggins, 1989; Miller, 1979; Paul, 1986; Rees, 1979). In all studies, the great majority of offspring of both gay fathers and lesbian mothers described themselves as heterosexual. Taken together, the data do not suggest elevated rates of homosexuality among the offspring of lesbian or gay parents. For instance, Huggins (1989) interviewed 36 teenagers, half of whom were offspring of lesbian mothers and half of heterosexual mothers. No children of lesbian mothers identified themselves as lesbian or gay, but one child of a heterosexual mother did; this difference was not statistically significant. In a recent study, Bailey and his colleagues (1995) studied adult sons of gay fathers and found more than 90% of the sons to be heterosexual. Because the heterosexual and nonheterosexual sons did not differ in



the length of time they had resided with their fathers, the effects of the exposure to the fathers' sexual orientation on the sons' sexual orientation must have been either very small or nonexistent.

Other Aspects of Personal Development

Studies of other aspects of personal development among children of gay and lesbian parents have assessed a broad array of characteristics. Among these have been separation-individuation (Steckel, 1985, 1987), psychiatric evaluations (Golombok et al., 1983; Kirkpatrick et al., 1981), assessments of behavior problems (Flaks, Ficher, Masterpasqua and Joseph, 1995; Golombok et al., 1983; Patterson, 1994a), personality (Gottman, 1990), self-concept (Gottman, 1990; Huggins, 1989; Patterson, 1994a; Puryear, 1983), locus of control (Puryear, 1983; Rees, 1979), moral judgment (Rees, 1979), and intelligence (Green et al., 1986). Research has shown that concerns about difficulties in personal development in these areas among children of lesbian mothers are unwarranted. As was the case for sexual identity, studies of these other aspects of personal development have revealed no major differences between children of lesbian versus heterosexual mothers. One statistically significant difference in self-concept emerged in Patterson's (1994a) study: children of lesbian mothers reported greater symptoms of stress but also a greater overall sense of well-being than did children in a comparison group of heterosexual families. The responses of both groups were, however, within a normal range (Patterson, 1994a). Overall, the belief that children of gay and lesbian parents suffer deficits in personal development has no empirical foundation.

Social Relationships

Studies assessing potential differences between children of gay and lesbian versus heterosexual parents have sometimes included assessments of children's social relationships. The most common focus of attention has been on peer relations, but some information on children's relationships with adults has also been collected. Research findings that address the likelihood of sexual abuse are also summarized in this section.

Research on peer relations among children of lesbian mothers has been reported by Golombok and her colleagues (1983), Green (1978), and by Green and his colleagues (1986). Reports by both parents and children suggest normal development of peer relationships. For example, as would be expected, most school-aged children reported same-sex best friends and predominantly same-sex peer groups (Golombok et al., 1983; Green, 1978). The quality of children's peer relations was described, on average, in positive terms by researchers (Golombok et al., 1983) as well as by lesbian mothers and their children (Green et al., 1986).

No data on the children of gay fathers have been reported in this area.
 
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