Halladay to Phillies/Lee to Mariners/Lackey to Red Sox

[giambi]

Ok if in fact the seatle mariners do spend money like you said they do the 10th highest payroll why then did they finish in 3rd place and only go 8 games over .500 this year..... they were 10th highest payroll they should have at least finished in 2nd place right you really need to get a clue....if spending is that big of deal the mariners is a prime example of money does not in fact buy championships how many do they have....... you are looking through rose colored glasses like most people who just hate the yankees BTW the world series ratings were up this year with the yankees in it and the bottom line is that it is a business you are a very special person that only sees it one way.............BTW can you proofread this for me and let me know what is wrong with it thanks

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

Ok if in fact the seatle mariners do spend money like you said they do the 10th highest payroll why then did they finish in 3rd place and only go 8 games over .500 this year..... they were 10th highest payroll they should have at least finished in 2nd place right you really need to get a clue....if spending is that big of deal the mariners is a prime example of money does not in fact buy championships how many do they have....... you are looking through rose colored glasses like most people who just hate the yankees BTW the world series ratings were up this year with the yankees in it and the bottom line is that it is a business you are a very special person that only sees it one way.............BTW can you proofread this for me and let me know what is wrong with it thanks

You need to go back and re-read my post. Perhaps get someone with a degree to do it for you and then explain it to you using language you might understand. Is there a fourth grader around?

 

[giambi]

You need to go back and re-read my post. Perhaps get someone with a degree to do it for you and then explain it to you using language you might understand. Is there a fourth grader around?

I'll get your wife to look at it for me after she gets dressed thanks pumpkin

 

[bleedingpurple]

Yeah, iit doesn't happen every year, but it give them a chance.. I think my team the Twins could spend more but they are saving up to sign Mauer:scared They just don't have the ability to sign hunter or santana for that many years.. If Santana blows an arm and they are into him for 120 MILLION over 6 years then they can't survive. Its all good.. We are on the same point..


One of my favorite players btw is Donnie Baseball..

 

[giambi]

Yeah, iit doesn't happen every year, but it give them a chance.. I think my team the Twins could spend more but they are saving up to sign Mauer:scared They just don't have the ability to sign hunter or santana for that many years.. If Santana blows an arm and they are into him for 120 MILLION over 6 years then they can't survive. Its all good.. We are on the same point..


One of my favorite players btw is Donnie Baseball..

Amen to that I actually love cheering for the underdog when they are not playing the yankees of course...I just enjoy good baseball anyway happy holidays and good luck with your Vikings BTW I loved Donnie baseball and Lenny Dykstra too he played with his hair on fire I really wanted the Phillies to beat the Blue Jays in the world series what was that 93 that was a gritty team .......a great bunch of hard nosed ball players

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

Amen to that I actually love cheering for the underdog when they are not playing the yankees of course...I just enjoy good baseball anyway happy holidays and good luck with your Vikings BTW I loved Donnie baseball and Lenny Dykstra too he played with his hair on fire I really wanted the Phillies to beat the Blue Jays in the world series what was that 93 that was a gritty team .......a great bunch of hard nosed ball players

Cheering for the underdog. What bullshit. Why are they an underdog? Money. Baseball fucking sucks. One team makes the playoffs every year despite spending money foolishly, while the other hopes to make the playoffs once every five years. What a game.

 

[giambi]

Trampled underfoot what a perfect name for you...........you need to get out of your mom's basement and have some fun there is a world outside of the internet............you are a bitter person

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

Trampled underfoot what a perfect name for you...........you need to get out of your mom's basement and have some fun there is a world outside of the internet............you are a bitter person

If you're not angry, you're not paying attention. Baseball has been ruined by the lack of a fair playing field for each team. Its a joke. The Yanks will never have a losing record again. Its an advantage to the M's. We have one of the larger payrolls and we finally have a great GM. However, there are about 10-12 teams that can only hope for a division title once a decade. What a joke.

By the way your insults are pathetic. Perhaps if you didn't write like a retard, people would take you seriously.

 

[shawn555]

Back to original topic, the more time that passes the less I like the trade for Phillies.

The prospects they got back for Lee were not enough.

If they were concerned with payroll why not dumb Moyer and or Blanton?

You shed the payroll and get to keep Lee.

You also get the draft picks when Lee signs with someone else next offseason.

Also Lee has made it known that he wanted to resign with the phillies and play the rest of his career there.

The phillies could have secured the best rotation in baseball for the next five plus years if they kept Lee.

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

You also get the draft picks when Lee signs with someone else next offseason.

Also Lee has made it known that he wanted to resign with the phillies and play the rest of his career there.

Thats what I didn't get about the deal. The three prospects they got for Lee were nothing special. The M's will get those two picks when he walks. So not a big loss for them. Plus they get a 20 million dollar pitcher for 9 million this year. Big win.

To your other point, I thought Lee wanted to test the market. He wanted full market value, while the Phils were not willing to pay it.

 

[shawn555]

Mariners blog
http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/archives/188602.asp
Cliff Lee on trade to Mariners: 'I was in disbelief'

Cliff Lee was hunting in Arkansas when he received a call from his wife. She saw the rumors of his possible trade to Seattle on the TV and informed him. He dismissed it as Hot Stove conjecture at the time.

"I just thought it was rumors," Lee said Thursday.

Turns out, it wasn't.

"The next day I was going hunting again on the Mississippi River and I got the call from Ruben (Amaro Jr.) on the way there and he told me that it's for sure," Lee said.

That's how Lee, who said he was at the beginning stages of negotiating a new contract with the Phillies, found out he would be a Mariner in 2010.

The Phillies had made Lee an offer and he countered. The day he countered, he was traded.

"At first I didn't believe it because I thought we were working out an extension with the Phillies," Lee said. "I thought I was going to spend the rest of my career there. I loved my time there in Philly, but obviously this goes to show this is a business and you never know what's going to happen until you have a full no-trade clause.

"I'm looking forward to helping the Mariners win. My initial reaction was disbelief and shock. After it sank in and I got to looking at that Mariners team and what's going on there, I liked what's happening there and I'm going to do everything I can to help them win."

The left-hander said there simply was not enough communication between him and the Phillies to get an extension done. He also understands their interest in acquiring Roy Halladay.

"There was not enough dialogue," Lee said. "Basically they had an opportunity to get the best pitcher in baseball, too. I can't blame them for choosing Roy Halladay over me basically.

"I think anybody who really knows baseball, if you had one pitcher to build around, it would be him. He's the best pitcher in the game. I can't blame them for making that decision.

"It was one of those things that seemed like it happened overnight. I don't really know what happened. I was under the impression they wanted to keep me there for a long time and I thought we were in the process of making that happen. Next thing I know, I was traded.

"Not too long after they brought up the idea and made an offer I was traded. That's me being at the mercy of the team when I have a no-trade clause. There's nothing I can do about it. I have to go to the Mariners and try to help those guys win. Go over there and hopefully get back to the World Series with those guys."

Lee said he'll be coming to Seattle with an open mind and is aware that Safeco is considered a pitcher's park. He knows center fielder Franklin Gutierrez from their Cleveland days, but has never met Don Wakamatsu or Jack Zduriencik.

This is an option year of Lee's previous contract during which he will be paid $9 million. He can become a free agent at the end of next season if a new deal is not worked out with the Mariners. Lee said he has a general preference of not negotiating during the season, something he didn't do in Cleveland, because he feels the news becomes about his contract and not winning games. Right now, he has little idea going forward of how things will shake out.

"Open to seeing how it plays out," Lee said. "I can't give you an answer one way or the other right now because I don't know what Seattle has to offer."

The reference to "what Seattle has to offer" was not a strictly monetary one. Lee said everything from clubhouse chemistry to the actions of the club will influence his decision. The most important thing to him is to be on a team that has a shot at winning the World Series.

"That's what every player that plays this game should strive for, to get to the World Series and win it," Lee said. "I'm hoping that's Seattle this year. If it is, I'm all for it. That's a huge part of it for me."

Currently on vacation in Puerto Rico, Lee is in the middle of his offseason workout regimen, sticking to the process he's used the past couple years.

That's worked well. Lee went 22-3 with a 2.54 ERA in Cleveland in 2008 and then 14-13 with a 3.22 ERA while splitting 232 innings between the Indians and Phillies last year.


The Mariners sent pitchers Phillippe Aumont and Juan Ramirez and outfielder Tyson Gillies to Philadelphia. The Phillies finalized a deal with the Toronto Blue Jays to acquire Roy Halladay to replace Lee.

"We've acquired a very, very nice piece to help this organization move forward," Zduriencik said Wednesday. "It will be exciting to watch him pitch at the top of out rotation ? him and Felix Hernandez."

Zduriencik indicated Wednesday the team might have a few more offseason moves in store, even after the big-ticket additions of Chone Figgins and Lee.

"I don't think were done yet. I'd like to do a few more things," Zduriencik said.

The Mariners sent pitchers Phillippe Aumont and Juan Ramirez and outfielder Tyson Gillies to Philadelphia in the straight two-team trade. The Phillies finalized a deal with the Toronto Blue Jays to acquire Roy Halladay to replace Lee.

Lee is set to become a free agent after the 2010 season, but Zduriencik was hopeful about signing Lee to a new deal.

"When you have a player in house and he's playing for you, you don't know how he'll react," Zduriencik said. "He may turn around and love Seattle."

But even if Lee opts to leave, the trade is worth it, Zduriencik said.

"We do it because we try to improve this organization every day. We do it because we have a great deal of respect for our fan base."

The worst-case scenario is Lee leaving after the season and the Mariners getting two top prospects in return.

Aumont was the team's No. 1 draft pick in 2007. Just 20, he was promoted to Double-A last July and has a chance to become very good. But he already had been pegged as a reliever in the Mariners' farm system, a strange decision at such at early age for a guy drafted as top starting candidate.

Gillies, 21, was a 25th round draft pick who had an excellent 2009 season in Class A ball, winning the California League battle title with a .342 average and stealing 44 bases.

Ramirez, 21, was recently promoted to the Mariners' 40-man roster despite going just 8-10 with a 5.12 ERA last year in Class A. But he's a big kid out of Nicaragua with a lot of upside and has been listed by Baseball America as the Mariners' fifth-best prospect.
Posted by Todd Dybas at December 17, 2009 4:58 p.m.

Now maybe Lee countered with a crazy deal money wise but it seems to me that the phillies had a knee jerk reaction to his counter and dealt him without really shopping him around.

I think they should have actually made an attempt to resign him and if not taken more time and shopped him around.

There is no doubt in my mind that they could have gotten alot more for Lee, but for some reason it seems they just rushed him out the door.

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

I read that too. You notice once the Phils saw his offer they dealt him. He wanted market value and the Phils were not interested in paying him that.

 

[shawn555]

I read that too. You notice once the Phils saw his offer they dealt him. He wanted market value and the Phils were not interested in paying him that.

I guess I can understand that but they would have been better off just keeping him and letting him walk in the offseason.

And who knows maybe his demands come down as the season goes and maybe takes a discount after they get to postseason again.

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

I guess I can understand that but they would have been better off just keeping him and letting him walk in the offseason.

And who knows maybe his demands come down as the season goes and maybe takes a discount after they get to postseason again.

I agree. They should have figured out a way to keep him and take the two draft picks when he walks. I don't want the M's to resign Lee. Big contract deals on pitchers rarely work out. That would be a case where a team like the Yankees can risk it and if it flops its no big deal. However, other teams have a hard time when a 20 million dollar a year pitchers turns into shit.

 

[shawn555]

I agree. They should have figured out a way to keep him and take the two draft picks when he walks. I don't want the M's to resign Lee. Big contract deals on pitchers rarely work out. That would be a case where a team like the Yankees can risk it and if it flops its no big deal. However, other teams have a hard time when a 20 million dollar a year pitchers turns into shit.

What do you think of the Morrow deal?

I thought they could have gotten more for him.

Chavez is very young and has shown some power and improvement in patience, but has a long way to go learning the outfield.

I guess they only viewed Morrow as a reliever but still would think that a better offer could have been available somewhere.

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

What do you think of the Morrow deal?

I thought they could have gotten more for him.

Chavez is very young and has shown some power and improvement in patience, but has a long way to go learning the outfield.

I guess they only viewed Morrow as a reliever but still would think that a better offer could have been available somewhere.

I think most M's fans put a much higher value on Morrow than the market is willing to pay. They see him as the 5th player in the draft and the near no-hitter along with the potential. I just don't think he has much value. At least as much as we would like him to have.

As a stand alone deal i'm okay with it, but I think it might be tied to the Lee deal. Who really knows though. I think its pretty doubtful that Morrow ever turns into an effective starter. So you get a really good RP, without some of Morrow's baggage, and a B level prospect.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

As an M's fan, I have to agree with a lot of what TU is saying. However, here are some of the problems I have with Morrow being dealt:

1) The way the M's organization has handled this kid's development has been embarrassing. He's been shuttled back and forth between the bigs and minors so many times he probably doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. They have absolutely stunted his development as a pitcher, in my opinion. He was drafted to be a starter, yet in 3 full years he only has 15 MLB starts and 20 minor league starts. Morrow gets some of the blame this past season for waffling about which role he wanted, but the M's botched his first 2 seasons big time.

2) This one is really big to me -- we traded him much closer to his floor than his ceiling. ln other words, thus far in his career he hasn't really lived up to his potential. So why trade him now??? Let's say the M's finally give him a spot in the rotation for an entire year. Now let's say, worst-case scenario, he's absolutely awful and destroys any trade value he may have had. Ok. So what do we lose? Brandon League and a prospect who may very well never see the majors. Big deal. Conversely, if he does turn it around, he could realistically become a solid MOR guy. In that case, he could either be kept long-term, or traded for something much more than League and a mid-level prospect. So I just don't agree with trading Morrow when his value was so low. And this is nothing like the Silva trade, where you're ecstatic to get rid of a no-talent hack who has a huge salary. Morrow is cheap, young, and has a ton of upside.

Having said all that, there are concerns with Morrow. His fastball is mid- to upper- 90's, but his command is poor. He has also struggled to develop his secondary pitches. Lastly, his diabetes is always a concern. Ultimately, I think the M's brass just didn't see him ever being a starting pitcher, so they let him go. They probably felt like they got a slightly better reliever in League, as well as a marginal prospect as a throw-in.

Personally, I would have liked to have seen Morrow PROVE that he couldn't be a starting pitcher for the M's, but he never really got the chance.

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

As an M's fan, I have to agree with a lot of what TU is saying. However, here are some of the problems I have with Morrow being dealt:

1) The way the M's organization has handled this kid's development has been embarrassing. He's been shuttled back and forth between the bigs and minors so many times he probably doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. They have absolutely stunted his development as a pitcher, in my opinion. He was drafted to be a starter, yet in 3 full years he only has 15 MLB starts and 20 minor league starts. Morrow gets some of the blame this past season for waffling about which role he wanted, but the M's botched his first 2 seasons big time.

2) This one is really big to me -- we traded him much closer to his floor than his ceiling. ln other words, thus far in his career he hasn't really lived up to his potential. So why trade him now??? Let's say the M's finally give him a spot in the rotation for an entire year. Now let's say, worst-case scenario, he's absolutely awful and destroys any trade value he may have had. Ok. So what do we lose? Brandon League and a prospect who may very well never see the majors. Big deal. Conversely, if he does turn it around, he could realistically become a solid MOR guy. In that case, he could either be kept long-term, or traded for something much more than League and a mid-level prospect. So I just don't agree with trading Morrow when his value was so low. And this is nothing like the Silva trade, where you're ecstatic to get rid of a no-talent hack who has a huge salary. Morrow is cheap, young, and has a ton of upside.

Having said all that, there are concerns with Morrow. His fastball is mid- to upper- 90's, but his command is poor. He has also struggled to develop his secondary pitches. Lastly, his diabetes is always a concern. Ultimately, I think the M's brass just didn't see him ever being a starting pitcher, so they let him go. They probably felt like they got a slightly better reliever in League, as well as a marginal prospect as a throw-in.

Personally, I would have liked to have seen Morrow PROVE that he couldn't be a starting pitcher for the M's, but he never really got the chance.

There is no doubt they fucked Morrow up. Most of that falls on that idiot Bavasi, but either way whats done is done. I think the M's did not believe Morrow could be an effective starter. As you can see by the moves being made, he simply cannot be given the time to attempt to become a starter at the major league level. This team is built to win this year, while not giving up the future. JZ is doing an awesome job. So we get a better reliever and a prospect.

It could be argued the only mistake JZ has made was to give Morrow that option last year. We will never really know, but I suspect he didn't give Morrow the choice. Morrow gave the diabetes as an excuse and JZ let him come out of the bullpen. If he is healthy, you don't let a player make that decision. So I suspect Morrow put JZ in a place where he had to let him come out of the pen.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

Yeah, I agree that they didn't think Morrow was going to be a starter, so they traded him for a guy who they think is a better reliever. If Morrow never starts in the big leagues, or flails in doing so, I don't think it will be a bad deal. However, if he even has moderate success as a starter, I think the M's get the short end of the stick. Only time will tell.

As for winning now, l know it excites a lot of fans but it scares the hell out of me. The M's overachieved big time last year, and I think that has people falsely believing that the team is just one or two pieces away. Maybe I'm wrong and they are that close, but I just don't see it. The BP is young and performed much better than expected last year. Aardsma, White and Kelley were all pretty big question marks, but they all pitched well. They also got much better than expected starting pitching as well (who would have thought that would lead the league in ERA even with Bedard missing almost the entire year)? And although the offense was bad, Gutierrez had a better than expected year and Branyan had a career year.

You're dead on about Z doing a great job, though. I'm still trying to get used to having a competent GM for the M's. As long as Z doesn't touch Saunders, Triunfel, or Ackley, I will be happy. I'm STILL not over that Bedard trade. One of the worst trades of my lifetime -- even worse than Slocumb for Lowe/Varitek, if you ask me.

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

Yeah, I agree that they didn't think Morrow was going to be a starter, so they traded him for a guy who they think is a better reliever. If Morrow never starts in the big leagues, or flails in doing so, I don't think it will be a bad deal. However, if he even has moderate success as a starter, I think the M's get the short end of the stick. Only time will tell.

As for winning now, l know it excites a lot of fans but it scares the hell out of me. The M's overachieved big time last year, and I think that has people falsely believing that the team is just one or two pieces away. Maybe I'm wrong and they are that close, but I just don't see it. The BP is young and performed much better than expected last year. Aardsma, White and Kelley were all pretty big question marks, but they all pitched well. They also got much better than expected starting pitching as well (who would have thought that would lead the league in ERA even with Bedard missing almost the entire year)? And although the offense was bad, Gutierrez had a better than expected year and Branyan had a career year.

You're dead on about Z doing a great job, though. I'm still trying to get used to having a competent GM for the M's. As long as Z doesn't touch Saunders, Triunfel, or Ackley, I will be happy. I'm STILL not over that Bedard trade. One of the worst trades of my lifetime -- even worse than Slocumb for Lowe/Varitek, if you ask me.

The thing about JZ is that he is going for wins without sacrificing the future. Before the moves this offseason the M's were really an 81 win team. I think they are now in the 88 win area. That puts them in the area of an AL West title this year.

You have to look at the Bedard deal as the deal that got Bavasi fired. After that deal I rooted against the M's EVERY game until that fucking moron was fired. I lit up the Scout M's board with anger. If you think I went off on the guys in the politics forum here, you haven't seen anything. Even though it cost us Jones and Tillman, it was worth it.