Sandra Bland
- Thread starter Cie
- Start date
Weasie,
It is an outrageous request to tell her to put out the cigarette, when he has no authority to do so. He is a paid public servant that is required to act within the confines of the law and when he doesn't the blame rests entirely on him. He is the one paid and trained to know better. You keep saying it spun out of control when she refused to comply. He does not have the authority to tell her to do that, period. You may insist that compliance is the way to go and I'll always respect your right to believe that, but it is not where things started to go wrong. Things go wrong when an officer abuses his authority, exactly like it happened here. Telling her to put out her cigarette after the traffic stop is no more lawful than telling her to show her tits. It's simply not legal and nobody should ever ever ever comply with an unlawful order. Complicity does not dilute her situation. The cop was intent on starting something, which is evident by his actions.
As far as whether or not she was being arrested for outstanding warrants, the officer would have had to notify her of that prior to terminating the traffic stop which is legally ended when he handed her the warning or ticket.
That's why they run your license in the first place. I'm sorry brother but you're a white middle class male in America, you've already won the lottery. Your call for complicity is not reasonable when it comes to people of other cultures or races who suffer from discrimination and disparate treatment every single day. It seems to me that their fear is well deserved.
They found marijuana in her system and autopsy shows no evidence of murder, but abrasions on her back appear consistent with a knee being pressed into it...im assuming during arrest.
The weird part about the suicideis this::
Meanwhile, a friend of Bland's released audio of a voicemail message he received from her the day after her arrest: "Hey, this is me. I'm um, I just was able to see the judge. I don't really know. They have me at a $5,000 bond. I'm still just at a loss for words honestly at this whole process. How did switching lanes with no signal turn into all of this? I don't even know. Um, but I'm still here, so I guess call me back when you can."
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The weird part about the suicideis this::
Meanwhile, a friend of Bland's released audio of a voicemail message he received from her the day after her arrest: "Hey, this is me. I'm um, I just was able to see the judge. I don't really know. They have me at a $5,000 bond. I'm still just at a loss for words honestly at this whole process. How did switching lanes with no signal turn into all of this? I don't even know. Um, but I'm still here, so I guess call me back when you can."
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
nowadays if the first words out of your mouth when talking to a cop is {
am I being detained ?
look for a hard time , potential ass kicked, or maybe a jail suicide
That's not what happened and had she actually said that when told to put out the cigarette she'd most likely have finished her smoke on her way home.
What you just said is that exercising your civil liberties leads to trouble. How can anyone be okay with that?
I disagree...as i stated,people use cigarette smoke to try and hide other odors in a car(cie mentioned that the autopsy revealed marijuana in her system)... ...but even if I cede the point that she can keep a cigarette lit during a police stop,she still has to exit the vehicle when asked by the police....
she refused......
Situation 9
You have been pulled over at the side of the interstate for going 75mph in a 65mph zone. The weather is cold and unpleasant. The officer who pulled you over already has your license. Now he asks that you step out of your vehicle so he can pat you down.
You might wonder if you have to comply.
The BEST answer: Yes, you should get out of the car. You should tell him you do not consent to the search, but you should cooperate fully and not resist if he insists on patting you down.
The CORRECT answer: Yes, you must get out of the car. No, he?s not allowed to pat you down.The WRONG reaction: Refuse to get out of the car or resist his attempts to pat you down.
The U.S. Supreme Court decided many years ago, in a case called Pennsylvania v. Mimms, that an officer may order someone who he has stopped for a traffic violation to get out of the car. Thus, you do not have a choice in the matter. It does not matter that the weather is unpleasant or that the officer does not have a clear reason for asking you to get out....
When the officer asks you to ?please step out of your car,? you have to do it. As mentioned in Part VIII of this series, these sorts of ?requests? can be confusing. A polite officer will often ask things like, ?May I please see your license? Would you please step out of your car? Would you please pop your trunk? Would you please open your glove-box so I can take a look?? All of these sound like requests. But the first two are orders which may not be refused while the last two are fully optional requests which may, and should, be refused. The only way to tell the difference is to know your rights. Thus, as the CORRECT and BEST answers recognize, you must get out of the car when the officer asks you to.
http://www.columbuscriminaldefensea...ng-a-traffic-stop-police-interaction-part-ix/
so,even ceding the cigarette issue(which I don`t..i think it can be argued,aside from the dope masking issue,that it`s an officer safety issue...you can blind an officer with a lit cigarette) she still disobeyed a lawful command and in essence brought the arrest upon herself....
the cops are sick of hearing it
they know your being a asshole and will look harder to arrest you
I was 18 driving a chev impala going down the road minding my own business .
small town cop stops me 1100 PM in a snowstorm
I had just slipped on ice the day before and went into a snow bank
It knocked my left headlight out of whack but it was coming on and off.
Cop - I stopped yu because your headlight is out
KOD - I walk over kick it and it comes on. I say ,now its ok.
Cop - are you being some kind of a wise guy ?
KOD - am I being detained ?
Cop - calls back up, takes me down in a headlock and begins choking me, uses his flashlight to swing at my face,
KOD - meanwhile I am fighting this bitch and biting him on the arm hard as I can
Cops - backup arrives, and they pretty much kick me senseless.
Cops - take me to jail and I charged with assault with a deadly weapon.
KOD - overnight I decide life aint worth living and ...................
see what I mean.....
Weasie,
The traffic stop was over he did not tell her to put out shit because he thought she was hiding anything, because he didn't say shit about it during the traffic stop. He didn't say shit until he decided he wanted to bully her. He can't tell her to put our her cigarette, he doesn't have the authority at any point on this planet. That's it. That's the whole story right there.
One person, a trained law enforcement officer breaks the rules and guidelines that protect the liberties of the citizens he is bound by oath to protect.
A second person gets pissed because she knows her rights and you blame her for it all.
Update 3. The officer lied in his initial statement of events. He claimed he allowed sufficient time to de-escalate the situation, told dispatch he was unharmed yet charged her with assault.
How you can continuously ignore the blatant abuses of power and disregard something so important as rights and liberties truly astounds me. I luv ya brother but i really wish you would hold the police as responsible for their actions as you do their victims.
The traffic stop was over he did not tell her to put out shit because he thought she was hiding anything, because he didn't say shit about it during the traffic stop. He didn't say shit until he decided he wanted to bully her. He can't tell her to put our her cigarette, he doesn't have the authority at any point on this planet. That's it. That's the whole story right there.
One person, a trained law enforcement officer breaks the rules and guidelines that protect the liberties of the citizens he is bound by oath to protect.
A second person gets pissed because she knows her rights and you blame her for it all.
Update 3. The officer lied in his initial statement of events. He claimed he allowed sufficient time to de-escalate the situation, told dispatch he was unharmed yet charged her with assault.
How you can continuously ignore the blatant abuses of power and disregard something so important as rights and liberties truly astounds me. I luv ya brother but i really wish you would hold the police as responsible for their actions as you do their victims.
we` can hem and haw about timing and the nuances of the stop...i think we still disagree about "abuse of power"...
..
i`m surmising that he was going to ask her to step out of the car(which is his right without explanantion) and wanted the cigarette disposed of for his safety...i don`t think that`s unreasonable and she certainly should have complied with his requests...you comply and grieve it later......it wasn`t a debate...
i think(given today`s climate involving the police and minorities),he`ll get sanctioned harshly whether he was deemed technically correct or not...that said,he overreacted when he shouted "i`ll light you up"....and i have no doubt,he`ll pay dearly...
very unfortunate that she was obviously mentally fragile and didn`t have anyone willing to bail her out(3 days is ridiculous).....that`s the part of this that bothers me....an obviously unstable woman left to sit in jail..hard to believe(even in these hard times) that her mother/sisters/family couldn`t somehow work out a deal with the bailbondman that she spoke with when first arrested to swing the $500 to get her released.....he allegedly even called her mother for her....
that`s unnecessary and extremely sad....
terrible stuff...
It is sad. It's sad and disheartening when you see a rookie police officer that has already disposed of his most basic training and disobeys the law. He should be jailed.
Weasie,
He can ask her to get out of the car and she has to....... DURING A LEGAL TRAFFIC STOP. THE TRAGIC STOP WAS OVER!!!!
Why can't you understand that? He can't make traffic stops from his Vega, can't search a vehicle without cause, can't knock on your site and ask you to our out your cigarette, can't enter your yard without cause.
All officers are guardians of the lace and are hired to obey the law as well as uphold it.
Professional bass anglers aren't allowed to use live bait. It seems trivial but if the tournament director participated in a tournament and used dead minnows, he'd still be breaking the rules and it's even worse when he's the director.
Same with police.
Weasie,
He can ask her to get out of the car and she has to....... DURING A LEGAL TRAFFIC STOP. THE TRAGIC STOP WAS OVER!!!!
Why can't you understand that? He can't make traffic stops from his Vega, can't search a vehicle without cause, can't knock on your site and ask you to our out your cigarette, can't enter your yard without cause.
All officers are guardians of the lace and are hired to obey the law as well as uphold it.
Professional bass anglers aren't allowed to use live bait. It seems trivial but if the tournament director participated in a tournament and used dead minnows, he'd still be breaking the rules and it's even worse when he's the director.
Same with police.
Not sure if you are mocking my statement from yesterday , or we agree, I think we actually agree on something
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]On July 10, 28-year-old Sandra Bland was arrested and charged with assaulting a public servant. She was taken to the Waller County Jail; three days later, she was found in her cell dead from what officials called suicide. Both the FBI and the Texas Rangers launched investigations trying to find out what happened.
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]Dashboard camera footage from Bland?s traffic stop was released on Tuesday. (Note: The video was uploaded to YouTube Tuesday evening; it has since been taken down, after people pointed out errors and inconsistencies in the video, which led many to believe it had been edited. A DPS spokesman denied editing the video, and said this morningthey would re-upload the footage without errors or omissions.)
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]Questions, in the wake of the video: What are the rules? Not policies or politeness ? specifically, what are your rights when you?re pulled over by police?[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]Jim Harrington, director of the Texas Civil Rights Project, speaks with Texas Standard about the footage of the arrest, point-by-point. Here?s a transcript of the conversation, edited for brevity and clarity:
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]The trooper asks, ?You mind putting out your cigarette please?? And Ms. Bland says, ?Well, I?m in my car ? why do I have to put out my cigarette?? Does she have to put out her cigarette?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]?No, she doesn?t have to put out her cigarette. And you wonder why the officer is even bothering with that. This is part of his escalation of the whole event that unfolded, unfortunately.?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]The next part: ?Step out of the car.? Ms. Bland says, ?You do not have the right.? He interrupts ? ?I do have the right, step out of the car or I will remove you.? Does he have the right, first, to order her to step out of the car, and second, to actually physically remove her from the car?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]?He does not have the right to say get out of the car. He has to express some reason. ?I need to search your car,? or, whatever; he needs to give a reason. He can?t just say ?get out of the car? for a traffic offense.?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]It?s one thing to say he has a reason; it?s another to say he has to give a reason. He may have had probable cause, or thought he had it, we don?t know. Does he have to state it?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]?He doesn?t have to state probable cause; he has to state some reason ? And that?s part of the training that he should have had about how to de-escalate a situation. She?s clearly upset about what happened, particularly ? as we know later on ? that she moved over because he was tailing her. ? He should be working on de-escalation. That?s the key. ?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]Ms. Bland says, ?I refuse to talk to you other than to identify myself.? Is she right or wrong?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]?She?s right. Unfortunately, officers don?t like it when you know the law. In this case, even if you are right, you are still in danger. And that?s what we see unfolding here.?[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]The trooper says, ?I am giving you a lawful order.? Now, is the is the lawful order to extinguish the cigarette, or to get out of the car, or neither?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]?You can?t tell why. Certainly, telling her to put out the cig was not a lawful order. Just saying ?Get out of the car,? in and of itself, without an explanation, is not lawful. And you see him say that throughout the video without ever saying why [or] what?s going on here. It?s clear to me that he?s trying to assert authority that he probably does not have under the law, and he?s escalating the situation because he is upset. [He] doesn?t exercise the training that he needs to be exercising to de-escalate this situation.?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]?I?m gonna yank you out of here,? is what the trooper says. Can he physically ?yank? her out of her vehicle?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]?He can?t do that either, unless she?s posing a threat to his welfare and safety. What he should have done was just wait for backup, if he couldn?t de-escalate it himself. But you don?t just pull somebody out of the car, and point that taser in her face. What if it had gone off? She?d have permanent brain damage.?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]She says, ?Dont touch me, I?m not under arrest.? Trooper says, ?You are under arrest. She says, ?Under arrest for what?? He then turns to his shoulder mounted radio, and asks for another unit. Does he have an obligation as a law enforcement officer to tell her why she is under arrest?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]?Yes. He needs to ? it?s not clear to her what?s going on. He needs to tell her, ?You?re under arrest because ?,? but you can?t really tell her that. Because you can?t tell from the video that there?s any reason to have her under arrest.[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]She asserts her right to record this with her cell phone. That?s a right that has been clearly established. Is that true?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]?She has a right to do that. But that?s another example where the officer perceives this as a challenge to his authority ? and it further escalates the whole scenario.?[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]When he says ?get out of the car, or I will light you up,? he is apparently referring to the use of a taser. Is that a legitimate threat? Is that something that?s okay for officers to do in that situation?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]?No ? here?s the situation where he is clearly violating her constitutional rights. This is excessive force on the part of the officer ? to take that taser and point it in her face and say, ?I?m going to harm you.? Taser is the last recourse to a gun. And if he can?t get her out, he can?t de-escalate it, he?s got to wait for another officer to come and talk through this.?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]Right now, the trooper has been placed on administrative duty. He?s not on leave, he?s still working for DPS. It?s our understanding that there is a violation of policy here ? he should not have allowed it to escalate.
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]We are talking about a certain level of discretion that the state apparently entrusts with its troopers. Should officers have that much discretion?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]?He clearly exceeded that. ? The discretion here is, how do you de-escalate the situation? He could have just given her the ticket and walked away. Just like that. But he had to go through this confrontation. Of course, there are questions of race that come up here. And the fact that this is an out-of-state car moving through the town ? and we know in Texas that?s a pretty typical profiling event. What bothers me a lot is that troopers are supposed to be the best-trained police officers we have in the state. This guy is clearly out of control ? clearly shouldn?t be out on the streets dealing with people ? [given] this level of escalation that he provokes.?[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]Dashboard camera footage from Bland?s traffic stop was released on Tuesday. (Note: The video was uploaded to YouTube Tuesday evening; it has since been taken down, after people pointed out errors and inconsistencies in the video, which led many to believe it had been edited. A DPS spokesman denied editing the video, and said this morningthey would re-upload the footage without errors or omissions.)
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]Questions, in the wake of the video: What are the rules? Not policies or politeness ? specifically, what are your rights when you?re pulled over by police?[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]Jim Harrington, director of the Texas Civil Rights Project, speaks with Texas Standard about the footage of the arrest, point-by-point. Here?s a transcript of the conversation, edited for brevity and clarity:
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]The trooper asks, ?You mind putting out your cigarette please?? And Ms. Bland says, ?Well, I?m in my car ? why do I have to put out my cigarette?? Does she have to put out her cigarette?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]?No, she doesn?t have to put out her cigarette. And you wonder why the officer is even bothering with that. This is part of his escalation of the whole event that unfolded, unfortunately.?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]The next part: ?Step out of the car.? Ms. Bland says, ?You do not have the right.? He interrupts ? ?I do have the right, step out of the car or I will remove you.? Does he have the right, first, to order her to step out of the car, and second, to actually physically remove her from the car?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]?He does not have the right to say get out of the car. He has to express some reason. ?I need to search your car,? or, whatever; he needs to give a reason. He can?t just say ?get out of the car? for a traffic offense.?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]It?s one thing to say he has a reason; it?s another to say he has to give a reason. He may have had probable cause, or thought he had it, we don?t know. Does he have to state it?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]?He doesn?t have to state probable cause; he has to state some reason ? And that?s part of the training that he should have had about how to de-escalate a situation. She?s clearly upset about what happened, particularly ? as we know later on ? that she moved over because he was tailing her. ? He should be working on de-escalation. That?s the key. ?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]Ms. Bland says, ?I refuse to talk to you other than to identify myself.? Is she right or wrong?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]?She?s right. Unfortunately, officers don?t like it when you know the law. In this case, even if you are right, you are still in danger. And that?s what we see unfolding here.?[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]The trooper says, ?I am giving you a lawful order.? Now, is the is the lawful order to extinguish the cigarette, or to get out of the car, or neither?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]?You can?t tell why. Certainly, telling her to put out the cig was not a lawful order. Just saying ?Get out of the car,? in and of itself, without an explanation, is not lawful. And you see him say that throughout the video without ever saying why [or] what?s going on here. It?s clear to me that he?s trying to assert authority that he probably does not have under the law, and he?s escalating the situation because he is upset. [He] doesn?t exercise the training that he needs to be exercising to de-escalate this situation.?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]?I?m gonna yank you out of here,? is what the trooper says. Can he physically ?yank? her out of her vehicle?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]?He can?t do that either, unless she?s posing a threat to his welfare and safety. What he should have done was just wait for backup, if he couldn?t de-escalate it himself. But you don?t just pull somebody out of the car, and point that taser in her face. What if it had gone off? She?d have permanent brain damage.?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]She says, ?Dont touch me, I?m not under arrest.? Trooper says, ?You are under arrest. She says, ?Under arrest for what?? He then turns to his shoulder mounted radio, and asks for another unit. Does he have an obligation as a law enforcement officer to tell her why she is under arrest?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]?Yes. He needs to ? it?s not clear to her what?s going on. He needs to tell her, ?You?re under arrest because ?,? but you can?t really tell her that. Because you can?t tell from the video that there?s any reason to have her under arrest.[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]She asserts her right to record this with her cell phone. That?s a right that has been clearly established. Is that true?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]?She has a right to do that. But that?s another example where the officer perceives this as a challenge to his authority ? and it further escalates the whole scenario.?[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]When he says ?get out of the car, or I will light you up,? he is apparently referring to the use of a taser. Is that a legitimate threat? Is that something that?s okay for officers to do in that situation?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]?No ? here?s the situation where he is clearly violating her constitutional rights. This is excessive force on the part of the officer ? to take that taser and point it in her face and say, ?I?m going to harm you.? Taser is the last recourse to a gun. And if he can?t get her out, he can?t de-escalate it, he?s got to wait for another officer to come and talk through this.?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]Right now, the trooper has been placed on administrative duty. He?s not on leave, he?s still working for DPS. It?s our understanding that there is a violation of policy here ? he should not have allowed it to escalate.
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]We are talking about a certain level of discretion that the state apparently entrusts with its troopers. Should officers have that much discretion?
[/FONT]
[FONT=aktiv_groteskregular]?He clearly exceeded that. ? The discretion here is, how do you de-escalate the situation? He could have just given her the ticket and walked away. Just like that. But he had to go through this confrontation. Of course, there are questions of race that come up here. And the fact that this is an out-of-state car moving through the town ? and we know in Texas that?s a pretty typical profiling event. What bothers me a lot is that troopers are supposed to be the best-trained police officers we have in the state. This guy is clearly out of control ? clearly shouldn?t be out on the streets dealing with people ? [given] this level of escalation that he provokes.?[/FONT]
Well thank you jaek, great post. The officer abused his authority and violated her rights and she ends up dead.
That poor poor officer may lose his job though! Isn't it just a tragedy, losing a job because you thought it was okay to violate another human beings rights for absolutely no reason other than ignorance? I can't understand why we don't give police more authority and make everyone comply with yes sir no sir or they get tased. I mean, he'd still be on the job, doing more great work just like he did here.
Who cares if the woman is dead, he may lose his job!
Okay, sarcastic rant over, the cop was wrong just like I've maintained all along. Complicity is not the answer in all cases
That poor poor officer may lose his job though! Isn't it just a tragedy, losing a job because you thought it was okay to violate another human beings rights for absolutely no reason other than ignorance? I can't understand why we don't give police more authority and make everyone comply with yes sir no sir or they get tased. I mean, he'd still be on the job, doing more great work just like he did here.
Who cares if the woman is dead, he may lose his job!
Okay, sarcastic rant over, the cop was wrong just like I've maintained all along. Complicity is not the answer in all cases
That's where we disagree. Complicity is always the answer if you are seeking the lowest possibility of detainment, incarceration, injury or death.
Doesn't mean the cop is right, but had she put out the stogie, she wouldn't have been arrested.
So, while this cop was totally out of line, complicity with his outrageous demands would have been the wiser choice.
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My point is that complicity does not always De-escalate a situation and while I'll agree that it probably de-escalates the officers ire, that doesn't make it the best choice. Complicity has gotten us to this point. Historically, our citizens have been complicit to police and it has led to an egregious amount of abuse of power. Maybe a time will come that a citizen won't have to go to jail when they demand to be treated according their constitution. I will never agree with our citizens having to forego their rights in order to avoid confrontation with another citizen that happens to be law enforcement.
I watched this again, and I'm even more convinced that officer Encinia was completely in the wrong. If I'm driving, and I see a police car coming up fast behind me, I get right over for them just like she did. That was a terrible stop.
I hate cigarettes, so I think it's a reasonable request to ask her to put it out. It's not proper to arrest her for not doing it or to have the reaction he did.
The officers also seemed to use excessive force detaining her, but since thsts off camera, we can't be for sure. The circumstances of her death are also very questionable. Who knows how she died? Maybe they covered it up as a hanging just like Porn-Stache did?
I laughed when she called him a pussy off camera. I also thought it was funny how he said he wasn't hurt badly but she did kick him. He is a pussy.
Had she not been arrested, she would be alive today.
I hate cigarettes, so I think it's a reasonable request to ask her to put it out. It's not proper to arrest her for not doing it or to have the reaction he did.
The officers also seemed to use excessive force detaining her, but since thsts off camera, we can't be for sure. The circumstances of her death are also very questionable. Who knows how she died? Maybe they covered it up as a hanging just like Porn-Stache did?
I laughed when she called him a pussy off camera. I also thought it was funny how he said he wasn't hurt badly but she did kick him. He is a pussy.
Had she not been arrested, she would be alive today.
