The Great Teacher Exodus From Wisconsin Has Begun

[Mags]

But I think they get their health care for free.

Stevie - I didn't think you were one of those guys who believed in "free lunch".

Do you really think it is "free" in other countries? Nobody pays for it? Doctors/Hospitals and their operating expenses - nobody gets paid?

Really?

Free healthcare, eh? I guess the foodstamp program is "free" too, since the participants themselves don't pay for it?

Nothing is free - not in America or any other country. Somebody always pays.

I guess your view is that as long as it is FREE TO YOU, then it doesn't matter. Short-sighted. And for a self-avowed liberal, very selfish.

 

[StevieD]

Stevie - I didn't think you were one of those guys who believed in "free lunch".

Do you really think it is "free" in other countries? Nobody pays for it? Doctors/Hospitals and their operating expenses - nobody gets paid?

Really?

Free healthcare, eh? I guess the foodstamp program is "free" too, since the participants themselves don't pay for it?

Nothing is free - not in America or any other country. Somebody always pays.

I guess your view is that as long as it is FREE TO YOU, then it doesn't matter. Short-sighted. And for a self-avowed liberal, very selfish.

You guys are trying to turn us into a third world country. You want us to work for the pay they make in those countries but when it comes to health care you want us to pay America prices. Get on one side or the other. If you want to bring the pay down to a socialist country then you better be rerady to give the benefits of a socialist country.

I am not selfish. I just want to keep what I earn. I don't want it all going to insurance companies and doctors and the overly wealthy of this country.

 

[bleedingpurple]

MAGS

You are just taking the teachers an running with it, Superior WI, wheat and grain, They are SELF state agency, they DONT GET NO taxpayer support, their union was stripped of rights and oh yeah, here is an 8 % pay cut, go screw yourselves guys. These guys are getting paid 14 - 18 an hour but here is your cut and there is nothing you can do about it. Where do you think most people work around here? Grain elevators! If you don't work there, you have friends and relatives who do. Not the best for walker. Wonder what Milwaukee's port thinks of him

 

[Mags]

MAGS

You are just taking the teachers an running with it, Superior WI, wheat and grain, They are SELF state agency, they DONT GET NO taxpayer support, their union was stripped of rights and oh yeah, here is an 8 % pay cut, go screw yourselves guys. These guys are getting paid 14 - 18 an hour but here is your cut and there is nothing you can do about it. Where do you think most people work around here? Grain elevators! If you don't work there, you have friends and relatives who do. Not the best for walker. Wonder what Milwaukee's port thinks of him

BP - I do see that is a different situation. Frankly, we don't hear about those folks in the Milwaukee area - all we hear about is the teachers.

So, your point, for these workers, is well taken.

 

[The Sponge]

Tell that to the farmer in WI (which we have a lot of).

How many paid sick days do you think they get??? :mj07:

(or is that baseball?)

Let me know when a tomato plant has an argument with a farmer and then the farmer has to worry the rest of the week that the tomatos are gonna come to their home and beat the shit out of them. Cmon man a farmer? Bull work and basically no mental work at all plus not putting up with some punk kid the whole year because his family has split up and don't give a dick about him.

 

[Mags]

Let me know when a tomato plant has an argument with a farmer and then the farmer has to worry the rest of the week that the tomatos are gonna come to their home and beat the shit out of them. Cmon man a farmer? Bull work and basically no mental work at all plus not putting up with some punk kid the whole year.

If you are trying to say that being a farmer is somewhat easier than being a teacher, I would suggest you go work on a dairy farm for a day.

There is no harder worker, IMHO, in the state. I worked part time on farms growing up - and it didn't take me long to realize that is not what I'd ever want to do.

Heck, you probably couldn't make it through 1 day of baling hay.

You act like teaching gets the best and brightest of potential applicants. That couldn't be further than the truth. I looked up a study (not on this computer, but I did save it) that broke down ACT scores by declared college major. Needless, to say, Education majors were well behind math, sciences and business majors.

And many farmers are smarter than you give them credit for - they are running their own business, with huge capital needs. You could never run the farm, much less work a day on one.

 

[Duff Miver]

What's the answer, Maggot? How much skin do YOU have in the game?

 

[Mags]

What's the answer, Maggot? How much skin do YOU have in the game?

The answer to what? The question "Is Duff Miver a douche who lives off the government?"

My magic 8 ball says "All signs point to yes" :00hour

 

[Mags]

More interesting tibbits regarding teachers

More interesting tibbits regarding teachers

More than 85% of U.S. teachers have an education degree. But many ed schools are fusty, politicized institutions that seem designed to turn out reliable teachers'-union members rather than reliable educators. And their lecture halls aren't exactly brimming with overachievers. According to a forthcoming McKinsey & Co. study, just 23% of new teachers in the U.S. come from the top third of their college classes; 47% come from the bottom third. In other words, we hire lots of our lowest performers to teach, and then we scream when our kids don't excel.

As I said, teachers are not our best candidates in school - nor should they be paid as such. As you can see above, "those who can't do, teach".

And it is not like teachers don't get paid well. From the same article:


According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average K-12 teacher in the U.S. makes approximately $49,000. Yes, the lowest 10% earn about $32,000, but the top 10% earn roughly $78,000. A chemistry teacher at a public school in an upscale suburban county can make $150,000 a year or more. And he gets the summer off.

But more pay does not mean better quality? There is nothing out there, statistically, that says better pay will result in better students....

The median salary among all middle school teachers, for example, not just those starting out in the profession, is around $52,000, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Would paying teachers 2 to 3 times more money mean that students would learn more? We don't know. But smaller raises of 20 percent or less have been ineffective, and one New York City school that embraced much higher pay has so far underperformed on state tests.

 

[Chadman]

In light that reading much of this has made me pretty angry, some of the points are fair. Some cherry-picked statistics and local situations are not fair to compare to others, of course.

The one thing I would like to aggressively attack is the simple comment about teachers being required to now work 7 or 8 hours a day, compared to the 6 hours before. I don't know what the hell these numbers are based on, but if you want to be realistic about this that "requirement" is ludicrous. I would wager that there is not one full time teacher that has a full class load in Wisconsin or anywhere else that maintains a teaching job for more than one year that works just 6 hours a day. This line of thinking shows a dramatic underselling of what teachers actually have to do - and/or - a complete non-understanding of what they have to do. I note this, because it was mentioned along with the little laughing guy and compared to the farming "profession."

Secondly, if you think teachers actually have three full months off every year, the above commentary goes for that two. Teachers don't just show up for work the first day of school and leave the last day of school. But most have no idea about any of that - they just run with the STUPID assessment and think teachers have it easy. The simple fact is that most of the people who ridicule teachers as having it so good and easy couldn't last a week trying to manage several classrooms of students each day. Wanted to become a teacher usually stems far more from actually WANTING to be a teacher to work with kids and enjoying being around them all day every day than it does from the "benefits" you receive from doing it.

The thought occurs to me (for the first time, actually) that many students are probably developing their opinion about teachers from the parents who blab about this way of thinking to their kids. Many who are incredibly thankful they don't have to worry about interacting with them (for SIX hours a day... ).

 

[Lumi]

What ultimately is the final result?

The kids suffer, the parents suffer.

There is yelling, screaming, protests, lies told about both sides of the arguments.

Recall elections that cost the state tens of millions of dollars, then investigations for voter fraud.

It never stops !

Run in circles, try to catch your tail !

 

[Duff Miver]

I've always thought the people of VT, NH, MN and WI have lots of common sense, and I'm betting they will push the flush handle on Walker.

He's more offensive that a big chunk of warm Limburger, and Wisconsinites know their cheese.

 

[Lumi]

I've always thought the people of VT, NH, MN and WI have lots of common sense, and I'm betting they will push the flush handle on Walker.

He's more offensive that a big chunk of warm Limburger, and Wisconsinites know their cheese.

So they flush, and then what?

Someone uses too much Charmin and backs up the grunt bucket, so now you need the Roto Rooter man to unfuck the pipes !

Voter fraud, AGAIN !

NOT DIRECTED AT ANYONE IN PARTICULAR,
BUT LET'S BE HONEST ABOUT THE DICK DANCE IN WISKY !

BTW, GO UNLV !

 

[ImFeklhr]

The one thing I would like to aggressively attack is the simple comment about teachers being required to now work 7 or 8 hours a day, compared to the 6 hours before. I don't know what the hell these numbers are based on, but if you want to be realistic about this that "requirement" is ludicrous. I would wager that there is not one full time teacher that has a full class load in Wisconsin or anywhere else that maintains a teaching job for more than one year that works just 6 hours a day. This line of thinking shows a dramatic underselling of what teachers actually have to do - and/or - a complete non-understanding of what they have to do. I note this, because it was mentioned along with the little laughing guy and compared to the farming "profession."

Secondly, if you think teachers actually have three full months off every year, the above commentary goes for that two. Teachers don't just show up for work the first day of school and leave the last day of school. But most have no idea about any of that - they just run with the STUPID assessment and think teachers have it easy. The simple fact is that most of the people who ridicule teachers as having it so good and easy couldn't last a week trying to manage several classrooms of students each day. Wanted to become a teacher usually stems far more from actually WANTING to be a teacher to work with kids and enjoying being around them all day every day than it does from the "benefits" you receive from doing it.

The thought occurs to me (for the first time, actually) that many students are probably developing their opinion about teachers from the parents who blab about this way of thinking to their kids. Many who are incredibly thankful they don't have to worry about interacting with them (for SIX hours a day... ).

So much this. It's funny how the tide has turned. It seems like 5-10 years ago and prior the comments were always how underpaid and noble the teaching profession was.

Almost all teachers I have ever known approached it as a vocation.

If we used pure white-collar business practices in this situation, you would constantly have teachers looking for the next big pay raise and doing all sorts of business minded tactics to move up the ladder.

I don't think we need to treat this one position as a business opportunity.
Stability when it comes to the education is a good thing.

I am not saying we don't need to make adjustments to the current setup. But let's not villainize teachers for legally negotiating contracts to their benefit. Should they negotiate deals to their detriment?

 

[Mags]

I am not saying we don't need to make adjustments to the current setup. But let's not villainize teachers for legally negotiating contracts to their benefit. Should they negotiate deals to their detriment?

AH... there's always been the rub. There has not been true negotiation, as the unions are many times (espeically so in WI) "negotiating" with the very people that they just put in office. Which is the exact reason we are in the position we are today - outrageous benefits compared to the private sector.

Another case in point why public unions don't work - just as FDR had said 60+ years ago.

Walker just did what FDR said he should do - get rid of public unions. Great job Scott!

 

[ImFeklhr]

AH... there's always been the rub. There has not been true negotiation, as the unions are many times (espeically so in WI) "negotiating" with the very people that they just put in office. Which is the exact reason we are in the position we are today - outrageous benefits compared to the private sector.

Another case in point why public unions don't work - just as FDR had said 60+ years ago.

Walker just did what FDR said he should do - get rid of public unions. Great job Scott!

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with this. I too think unions when it comes to government workers can be problematic. But the teachers didn't create this situation individually, and they don't have it in their power to single handedly change it.

I would be interested to see what sort of bureaucracy would be involved in removing unions from the equation. If there is no collective bargaining how many HR type folks will governments have to hire to handle salary negotiations and to detail with each teacher as an individual employee. Will there be a net gain? :shrug:

 

[Duff Miver]

AH... there's always been the rub. There has not been true negotiation, as the unions are many times (espeically so in WI) "negotiating" with the very people that they just put in office. Which is the exact reason we are in the position we are today - outrageous benefits compared to the private sector.

Another case in point why public unions don't work - just as FDR had said 60+ years ago.

Walker just did what FDR said he should do - get rid of public unions. Great job Scott!

And you'd rather assholes like you put scum like Scott Walker in office?

 

[Mags]

I would be interested to see what sort of bureaucracy would be involved in removing unions from the equation. If there is no collective bargaining how many HR type folks will governments have to hire to handle salary negotiations and to detail with each teacher as an individual employee. Will there be a net gain? :shrug:

IM - I realize you are not near WI, so may not know the details of the legislation. There still IS collective bargaining on salaries for all public employees, just not on benefits.

The salaries, however, I believe are capped at a 3% increase - or inflation - whichever is higher (not positive on the exact amounts - there is a cap of some sort which is similiar to what I described).

So, the HR issues you mention, in terms of salary, won't be an issue.

Although more and more states are talking about individual teacher evaluation and salaries - which would be a great thing. We do need to reward our best teachers the most, and get rid of the bad ones.

In WI, we have a ton of people that want to be teachers. In fact, the Milwaukee paper just had an article last Sunday discussing an area school that had an opening and receive 1100 applications for that one job.

Clearly, it is a career, even with the changes made, that is still very attractive to folks.

 

[StevieD]

So much this. It's funny how the tide has turned. It seems like 5-10 years ago and prior the comments were always how underpaid and noble the teaching profession was.

Almost all teachers I have ever known approached it as a vocation.

If we used pure white-collar business practices in this situation, you would constantly have teachers looking for the next big pay raise and doing all sorts of business minded tactics to move up the ladder.

I don't think we need to treat this one position as a business opportunity.
Stability when it comes to the education is a good thing.

I am not saying we don't need to make adjustments to the current setup. But let's not villainize teachers for legally negotiating contracts to their benefit. Should they negotiate deals to their detriment?

It is not because the teachers have suddenly hit a gold mine, it is because the private sector has fallen so much in the last 10 years. The people are pissed. But now instead of rising themselves up to the levels they were at they want the public sector to come down to their level. Amazing! The American middle class is in a race to the bottom with themselves.

 

[The Sponge]

If you are trying to say that being a farmer is somewhat easier than being a teacher, I would suggest you go work on a dairy farm for a day.

There is no harder worker, IMHO, in the state. I worked part time on farms growing up - and it didn't take me long to realize that is not what I'd ever want to do.

Heck, you probably couldn't make it through 1 day of baling hay.

You act like teaching gets the best and brightest of potential applicants. That couldn't be further than the truth. I looked up a study (not on this computer, but I did save it) that broke down ACT scores by declared college major. Needless, to say, Education majors were well behind math, sciences and business majors.

And many farmers are smarter than you give them credit for - they are running their own business, with huge capital needs. You could never run the farm, much less work a day on one.

Yeah okay :mj07: I couldn't work on a farm but u somehow did. :142smilie I bet they use to call u blister because u usually showed up when the work was done. To think u could work on a farm but i couldn't roflmao. I bet u wined so bad they fired ur ass before u even thought about leaving. I never said farm work was easier in fact my words were "bull work". I never said that the teachers get the best and brightest. Not sure where u cooked up that one. It is always funny to hear from an Insurance agent about hard work. I bet the only callous u ever got was from stroking off ur phony hard work ethic.