video shows the beheading of an american

DOGS THAT BARK

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Stevie There is only one element at fault and that is the terrorist.
The beheading had little to do with reprecussions of prisoners as they have been doing this for years. It will not end regardardless of what we have done or will do. They hate us period.
How many Arab news media ever show remorse over these atrocities but let someone subject an Arab prisoner to humility and its the end of the world. They try to munipulate their people as well as ours---We can do what it takes or be munipulated---what gets my goat is when some of our media parralels theirs.
You got Kennedy saying on TV that Saddam ran the torture camps pryor and now we are----- Pretty strong talk from a drunk guilty of manslaughter;) ---and I will probably see that quote on Algezzera tomorrow as they love to quote liberals:)
 

ChrryBlstr

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aubie:

hey....thanks a bunch for your quick and honest response....i totally agree with your perception that the soldiers are the ones that get screwed in the whole thing....and i applaud you for your convictions....some that i have spoken to would go back in a heartbeat....but....others don't want to go back since it really is a "no-win" situation and the emotional and physical toll it has taken on them has been overwhelming....and although it differs from your perspective....having been there....i'm sure that you can appreciate their point of view as well!!!

once again....peace and good luck to you!!!

:)
 

djv

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First Clinton now Kennedy. If Kennedy is a drunk. I will take more like him. He at least has always stood up for the little guy. He always believed the middle class had to servive for us to stay strong. He is so right. There are many that believe the middle class is but servants for the so called higher ups. How dead wrong they are.
 

yyz

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djv said:
If Kennedy is a drunk. I will take more like him. He at least has always stood up for the little guy. He always believed the middle class had to servive for us to stay strong.


Mary Jo Kopechne should have been more "middle class".


(I figure the $140,923 her family got, put her above the middle class line...........)
 

Fat & Sassy

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Eddie Haskell said:
RRC:

Merely because I had a sad childhood and did not have any friends is no reason to attack me here on this forum. The sadness and lonliness caused me to work all that much harder in school propelling me into college, law school and a successfull career in the law.

Nosigar. My light is always on. At least my bulb works. As far as you are concerned, anytime, anyplace, macho man.

Eddie

5 units on Nosigar...........:padlock: :padlock: :padlock:
 

Chanman

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I wish the military would surround Fallujah and give them 24 hrs to vacate and/or give up the Terrorists. 2401 hrs its shock & awe. Just wishful thinking so I'll let those in the know decide.
A few articles regarding same:

http://www.anti-cair-net.org/press_019_04

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4082030,00.html

I am gonna cut N paste this from another board cause, well judge for yourself...


What ever happened to that beacon of light that the United States was supposed to represent to the World?

I just watched the decapitation video of Mr Berg. Horrible death. His father is devastated because of his loss and also because of the contribution/interference by US forces that indirectly led to this atrocity. His son was detained without the opportunity to defend himself and his identity for 13 days. Meanwhile the news of the US way of handling prisoners became public. This caused the situation for the young Mr Berg to become much more precarious and much more difficult for him to return home. This is a sad turn of events.

When the news of the US violations in regards to the treatment of prisoners finaly became available, I was ashamed to be American. I have seen more than the pictures and edited PC stuff that we are seeing on TV. The sex shit is real and according to the Red Cross(a fairly reliable source of information), at least 5 Iraqui prisoners have been killed by their captors and many others are unaccounted for. The abuses are not confined to just a few renegade soldiers in one prison camp.

To make matters worse, The blame is being laid upon the little guy, the field soldier. None of the higher ups are taking any responsibility. I sort of expected this, but the consequences of this lack of leadership are catastophic, as we will see. I thought that it was very illuminating when that little bitch explained that she was just obeying orders and was encouraged by her superiors to keep up the good work. It all made sense to me when she said that a good soldier follows orders, that's how the military works. She is right. It has always been a top down hierarchical system employing strict rules and procedures. Everything is scheduled and regimented. There are no deviations to the structure and functioning of the US military system.

The United States is digging its own grave:

I couldn't believe my ears when I heard that Abrams chump and a bunch of other talking heads on TV trying to justify the actions of the US in regards to the prison abuse. It only took me about 30 seconds to realize the implications of the bullshit that I was seeing in the big US propaganda machine.

The argument goes something like this: What the US did is OK, or tolerable, or what should be expected, and our actions are justified because our enemy has done the same or worse to their prisoners, some of which are their own citizens.

The problem is that now we have, by our own choosing, placed ourselves on the same level as our enemy ( the Terrorists and insurgents). In simple terms, the propaganda machine is telling its citizens that it is OK for the US military to do this because the enemy does it too. Fight fire with fire, eye for eye, tooth for tooth mentality.

What are the logical implications:
By logical, I want to refer to that ideal that the US is allegedly supposed to be; that beacon of light illuminating the notions of democracy, freedom, and justice for all the world to see. Notions of the categorical imperative- do unto your neighbor as you would have him do unto you, moral standards-just like the religious right would have it, and respect for human rights: This is what we advertise to the world. One of the leading justifications for going into Iraq was all the good that we were doing for the Iraqui people. Democracy and freedom, self rule and justice, the removal of a brutal dictatorship.

I guess all of that was just the delusions of a distorted reality. The US is no ****ing beacon of light. Check the record, we bring death and destruction wherever we go. Now we are even justifying our crimes, but only when caught red handed, of course.

If it is Ok for the US to treat prisoners the way the iraquis do, then I guess it would be OK for others to judge America by the same standards as the Iraquis. Here's the twist and what really pisses me off about the sorry state of leadership in US govt. right now.
1. The US has lots of weapons of mass destruction and we use them. It is not a matter of speculation like with Iraq.
2. The US commits war crimes
3. The US has initiated or started wars with other countries
4. The US did not have the support of the UN and continues to act as a maverick force around the globe
5. The US constantly refuses to yield to international consensus views to settle disputes via diplomacy and reason.
6. The US is also at war with its own citizens and leads the entire world when it come to percentage of population in prison. We are number 1 at this. (Ironically, we lag far behind the rest of the world in education) Incarceration is a way of life here. It is big business and provides jobs.
7. Our leaders have proved to the world that they cannot be trusted.
8. The US propaganda machine distorts facts and manipulates the news media in a number of powerful ways. The selection of what to report and what not to report, and when to report it are critical.

If it is OK for the US to behave like the Iraquis when it comes to the handling of prisoners, then shouldn't it be OK if some country decided that it was justified in invading the US in the same manner that we invaded Iraq??????? They could use the same reasons that we used, and if its ok for us shouldn't it be ok for them too?????

Sorry about the length, I've been holding my rage inside for a couple of days and needed to get this out. If you actually read this in its entirety, thank you. Your comments, good and bad are appreciated. I'm ****ing pissed off again at the piece of shit leadership we have running this country.

A government of the corporation to rule over the people and exploit the entire world.
 
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Eddie Haskell

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Nice article Channie. The horrible aspect of the characters of those who committed these crimes does not stop with these ugly americans but permeates the right wing of this country. Remember that movie with Michael Douglas where he said greed was good. Those that really believe that (and there are tons) are at the core of what is wrong with the country.

Unfortuneatly, those who believe in pure capitalism, dog eat dog, strong beats weak, greed is good eventually become the wealthy, powerful, and yep, republicans. Perfect example is the Bush family. The bully, we take what we want attitude, of the republicans and many of you on this board will be the ultimate undoing of this country.

Your boy has turned world sentiment against Americans when 2 1/2 years ago we had world sentiment on our side and we, yes, we together, could have done great things to advance civilization, ensure world peace, stop terrorism, bring different and diverse cultures closer together. But, alas, the cowboy, who doesn't like intellectuals, chose to flex US corporate might and cause what happened to Mr. Berg to in fact happen.

You see, Bush is responsible for Mr. Bergs death. Do you really think that had this imbicile cultivated world sentiment after 9-11 and formed a real coalition to fight terrorism instead of some personal and financially motivated diversion into Iraq that these crazy terrorists would have the moxey to do what they did to Mr. Berg? I think not. The world would be so enraged, yes, even middle of the road moslems, that we could have wiped out these fanatics and our lines at the airport would return to less than a half hour.

But no, our anti-intellectual leader had to ensure that Halliburton and the oil industry had record years. Hell, so far its only cost less than 1000 good guy lives. So what if the world thinks we are bullys who take what we want no matter what. So what if we have turned world sentiment from pro-america to anti-america. So what if we have made the world and the US a much more dangerous place to live. And you blockheads have said thank god Bush is in the white house instead of Gore.

As one who has taken an oath to uphold the laws of this country, I am distraught that this administration with the support of its party and about 1/2 the voting citizens of this country have systematically advanced the destruction of the freedoms our forefathers died for (and to which I would die for) in order to advance personal gain at the expense of our society.

Those who support Bush are anti-american.

Eddie
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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DJV I would say it is naive to believe any politician has concerns about the "little guy" although that is what they would have you to believe--however when it comes to what they say and what they do you get this----
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119710,00.html

Edward: A liberals view of capatalism>
"Unfortuneatly, those who believe in pure capitalism, dog eat dog, strong beats weak, greed is good eventually become the wealthy, powerful, and yep, republicans."

Websters:

Entry: capitalism > commercialism, competition, democracy, free enterprise, free market, industrialism, laissez faire, mercantilism, private enterprise

--and who do you think pays for all these entitlement benefits to support your clan?

Edward: liberal view No one is ever responsible for their actions its always some one else fault.
"You see, Bush is responsible for Mr. Bergs death."

---kind of reminds me of attorney for girl in abuse scandal coming on TV yesterday and saying they made her do it--did they make her smile as she did it also?

Edward:
"Those who support Bush are anti-american."
From your statement I have to assume that would make the those (such as yourself and the terrorist,France ect that do not support Bush---pro American :confused:
 

Wilson

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Eddie Haskell said:
Wilson:

Your late. Now hurry up and get in line.

By the way, you aren't far off with the IP comment. Living in Cincinnati sometimes can be like living in Afghanistan.

Eddie

Eddie,

A mental GIANT, such as yourself, should know the difference between possessive "your" and "you're"???

What a doofus bag.
 

hogman14

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Recently, I attended a forum with historian/author David Halberstam. It was called "Is Iraq Vietnam?" Although leaning left, Halberstam was VERY CRITICAL (to say the least) of McNamara's Vietnam plan...on an aside...make sure you see "The Fog of War." Vietnam documentary....really good stuff....

Anyways, Halberstam's main concerns (and the correlations to Vietnam) were: exit strategy, public perception. I would say the group of people in the forum were 95-98% liberal, caucasian, 40+ yrs old. I'm 23, a registered republican, but I did think The Best and the Brightest was one of the better history books written, and thought it would be a good opportunity. What impressed me the most is that he really did not let his politics get into how he thought about the war....err..that sounds stupid. But he was not overly critical, as many there were. I honestly think the crowd was disappointed that he didn't lead a parade to Wash. DC that day, and march on the front lawn of the White House in protest. The point was, it was not Vietnam. There were things that were similar, he noted, and also thought that our exit strategy might be similar as well (declare victory, and leave).

Perhaps the scariest part of the forum was when he took questions. You had people up there with ideas ranging from "impeaching the president for this illegal war," to "arresting him because he is going to kill all the Jews in this country." Yes, someone actually said that. I almost spoke up, I almost walked out. Just thought I would share that little bit. Kind of insignificant, but I found it interesting nonetheless.
 

Eddie Haskell

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Morning Wayne:

Your point on capitalism, I assume, is that you believe greed is good. Fine, buddy. The captalism you favor has morphed from the original form which was fine considering it involved REAL competition and an even playing field.

Today, the Bush capitalistic society involves and supports corporate welfare. You see Wayne, not to long ago charging 25% intererest on credit card balances was considered a crime. Today, under your leader, he has no problem with that and does nothing to halt this rape by bankers. After all bankers are his friends and helped get this moron elected.

Capitalism, like democracy, in its pure form, is great. The problem is putting both in practice, those with the werewithall take advantage. Campaign finance reform will help fix democracy. Reinstallation of governmental controls on your business buddies will help level the playing field in business.

Hey you like tort reform (governmental intervention). Why not with your scummy industry.

Your point on it always being someone elses fault nearly caused me to spit a mouthfull of coffee all over my monitor. It is so true that you and the rest of the Hitler youth have never blamed Clinton for anything since he left office. My favorite is how he is responsible for the mess in Iraq. It's neat how his responsibility became evident when things started turning sour for BushCo.

Your anti-american point is just as funny. Real Americans not corporate minions such as yourself, believe in individual rights, freedoms, and fairness. You believe in corporate power, mob mentality, spin, and the destruction of freedom. The sad part is I believe you have won the war.

Willy:

You are correct that my grammer needs work. Thank god for spell check. Give me a hand with this. Which is correct:

Your a douchebag, or
You're a douchebag.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Ed
 

gardenweasel

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btw

btw

to whom it may concern....to lay the terrorist threat as it is at the doorstep G.W. jr. is to lose all credibility in your argument.....the disco in bali had nothing to do with g.w.....the cole.....

let me spell it out,if you didn`t get it already...

the fundamental source of conflict in this world will not be primarily ideological or primarily economic. the great divisions and the dominating source of conflict will be cultural....... nations will remain the most powerful actors in world affairs, but the principal conflicts of global politics will occur between nations and groups of different civilizations.

the clash of civilizations will dominate global politics. the fault lines between civilizations will be the battle lines of the future.....

that`s it in a nutshell....it`s not g.w.`s fault....any more than it`s clinton`s........any simpleton should understand that....stop letting politics get in the way of open and honest discussion and thought......


give the bush myopia a break.....it won`t change if kerry gets elected.....anybody that thinks the terrorists disappear with the emergence of kerry needs a serious reality check...

that said,i almost hope kerry gets in.....i`ll be very anxious to see him have his whack at the terrorist issue, among others.....

we`ll see...

p.s....one thing i`ll admit.....it`s become obvious you can`t force things on people that they have absolutely no concept of....no frame of reference about...including democracy.....

the question is....what to do about these miserable, backwards nations and groups that believe that allah commands them to lay waste to everything and everyone that doesn`t "believe".....

what do we do?....
 
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ozball

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The fundamental source of conflict in this world will not be primarily ideological or primarily economic. The great divisions and the dominating source of conflict will be cultural....... nations will remain the most powerful actors in world affairs, but the principal conflicts of global politics will occur between nations and groups of different civilizations. The clash of civilizations will dominate global politics. The fault lines between civilizations will be the battle lines of the future.....

Agree GW...very insightful, and always a pleasure to read your thoughtful posts.

I think that through history it has been the case that it is the friction between civilizations that leads to conflicts. How a conflict/disagreement or source of friction is dealt with is still a function of the kind of leadership a nation or civilisation has, and the style of leadership. The cowboy style currently employed has escalated, rather than managed the current friction between the civilizations.

The same approach during the Cold War could well have brought on global nuclear war. The Cold War was won with subtlety as well as occasional brinksmanship. the kind of approach that is being employed by Cheney and Rumsfeld would likely have had preemptive nuclear strikes on the Soviet Union in the 50's

There is more than one way to manage a disagreement between civilizations

cheers

ozball
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Edward Yes I believe in capitalism
(capitalism > commercialism, competition, democracy, free enterprise, free market, industrialism, laissez faire, mercantilism, private enterprise ) by websters definition not yours.

---and on credit card debt -I don't know who is worse the companies for dangling the carrot in front of people with no means to pay or the people themselves. I am not the sharpest tack in the box and you can listen to all the investment seminars you want but the formost initial investment advice is very simple--get rid of all credit card debt!!!!!!!!!
 
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