Paq-DeLaHoya- I love this

[weepaul]

The biggest shock, though, is that De La Hoya gave Manny less of a fight than just about anyone in recent memory. Even Erik Morales landed some shots, as I recall, before going out in the third.


be a strong 152, 154 pounds on fight night, and ready to fight. I got that wrong on both counts.




but let's be frank, De La Hoya had nothing on Saturday night, and what's more I believe he KNEW he had nothing even before he entered the ring.



I think why the Oscar backers are so disappointed is because they felt that their guy didn't at least give them a run for their money.

I don't get many fights wrong and once or twice a year I go Astronomical on a bet with great success.
This is the first time I have failed miserably with my strategy.

What pisses me off more than anything is, I know I influenced other people to bet Oscar.
One guy who, I believe we both correspond with Graham, bet just about his whole stack on this fight and is now in really deep shit. Although I told him not to bet anywhere near his life savings, it does not make me feel any better.

I just can't believe how Oscar looked compared to just 6 months ago.

Oscar has always been a pretty boy but I alway's thought he had a fighters heart deep down.
I would not be bothered as much if he would have just gone for broke and got KO'd in 3 rounds but he just accepted his fate like a man going to the gallows.

When I heard he was 147, warning signals were flashing all over but I had to be an arrogant Prick and think, there is no way this bet can lose.

I will continue to do Astronomical bets when I feel they are correct, as long as I am using the books money. But I will do so with a far more humble attitude in the future :toast:

 

[Ghost Kid]

Good stuff Mr. Fightwriter

Oscar TOTALLY had to know before the fight he had nothing, because his reaction following the first round was one of total resignation

PunchStats had him landing around 80 punches....but meaningful shots...I counted ZERO

I would say, regarding Vargas, that he had taken tremendous beatings from Trinidad and Oscar. So I feel it was much easier to predict Vargas dying on the vine so to speak....

I've never seen Oscar at the wrong end of a beating. Even in the Hopkins fight, he knew he was in for one, so who stayed down for the count (in my opinion).

To see him take the shalacking he did Saturday was unbelievable, remarkable, and extremely frustrating for those who banked on the Golden Girl.

Surely something like this will be detrimental to his legacy. His eye will heal, his ego will repair itself, and he will sit back and count his millions. But his legacy is certainly tarnished with an effort like that.

 

[Ghost Kid]

I don't get many fights wrong and once or twice a year I go Astronomical on a bet with great success.

Oscar has always been a pretty boy but I alway's thought he had a fighters heart deep down.
I would not be bothered as much if he would have just gone for broke and got KO'd in 3 rounds but he just accepted his fate like a man going to the gallows.

But I will do so with a far more humble attitude in the future :toast:

you know what wee? if Oscar had gone for broke in the first 3 rounds he would have had a MUCH MUCH better chance !

This was so much sadder....so much more pathetic....so much more embarrassing...

 

[Kramden]

.
This was like Fernando Vargas coming into the ring a dead man walking for the rematch with Shane Mosley. Not many would have expected Vargas to be absolutely and utterly unable to compete that night, and I am pretty sure that not even Kramden read between the lines on that one. I'm right on this, aren't I, Kramden?

Touche, Graham. No,I thought Vargas was prepared as he looked good at the weigh-in and his training seemed solid from what I could glean and then he goes and puts on what looked like 25 pounds of bloat and walked in the ring with a barrel for a gut. I knew it was downhill from there.

 

[gardenweasel]

may have been the weight...may have been the fact that oscar just reached a point in his boxing life(god knows how many years going back to the amateurs)that the reflexes just aren`t there anymore....

maybe a bit of both....

we`ve seen it happen before...it`s just that there really wasn`t any indication that this was the case(until he walked into the ring after putting on a whopping 2 pounds post weigh-in).....

couldn`t get off.... couldn`t let the punches go...to the point where the smaller man was bullying him around the ring...and he could not respond...

i hate to start trouble,but this seems to set up the obvious hatton/pacquaio fight...

and maybe i`m bull headed...stubborn...maybe the wart on my ass can handicap boxing better than i can anymore...

but i don`t see hatton pulling an oscar....

sad thing is that ricky blows up in between fights...still,ricky looked like the old bully vs malignaggi....and hatton has heart out the ying yang....he never quit vs floyd...i actually thought he gave floyd a fit...

and again,i think ricky`s naturally a little bigger and probably stronger than manny...

wait a minute....haven`t i heard all this before?(
lord i`m hard-headed)...:banghead:

any brits care to weigh in on manny/hatton?

whichever way this goes,i don`t believe for a second that manny has a cakewalk here..

 

[crow]

Someone else, also very experienced, who had some first-hand knowledge of what was going on at Big Bear, told me that Oscar flat out left his fight in the gym, information I got too late to be of any use.

The thing is, in boxing there is a lot of information but also disinformation floating around, and things are not always what they seem.

Graham, i don't want to sound like welching, but don't you agree Angelo Dundee deliberately misled the public alleging Hoya was training like a brute in camp, all the opposite to what Valero witnessed ?
I believe a trainer as experienced as him would recognise in sparring sessions, even if he came up late in camp, whether a fighter has cut corners or not in his preparation ?

I just don't think that De La Hoya had it in him physically to give ANYTHING. He had the look of a man who was thinking: "I'm in it now and I've got to get through it," rather than one who is thinking: "OK, I'm ready to go, let's get to it." Big difference.

I think this is correct.
Nowhistanding his willingness to go through the fight ill prepared, commandable as it could be, doesn't it also reveal a certain amount of vanity/ disrespect towards the boxing community from Hoya ?

Five years ago, Vitali chose to cancel his defence vs Rahman, renounce to millions $ and retire rather than embarass himself and the boxing community fighting injured.

Max Baer defended his abandon vs Louis with this phrase " fans came to witness a contest, not an execution".


Considering what transpired this saturday, and this might sound very harsh, i suspect Hoya believed EVEN AN EXECUTION is good enough for the fans ( or maybe his arrogance in assessing Pac led him to hope for a less damaging defeat)

By calculating his fights, Hoya has hurt his legacy and the sport.

Five years from now he will curse himself.

 

[Fightwriter]

Hello Paul

Yes, I know who you mean regarding the person who bet almost his life savings on Oscar. Luckily he is a young man and has time on his side, but the loss was devastating to him. (He told me that you advised a smaller play.)

One thing we sometimes forget is that anything can happen in a fight.

In recent memory, of course, there was the Humberto Soto DQ, which hurt so many players. (Speaking of which, did anybody else notice that Juan Manuel Lopez hit Sergio Medina while he was down -- a stiff shot, too -- and Joe Cortez did nothing about it? Pity Mr. Cortez wasn't as lenient with the Mexican guy Soto as he was with the Puerto Rican kid Lopez, right?) Then we have Kirk Johnson falling down and blowing out his knee against Javier Mora, Gabriel Ruelas suffering a broken arm when dominating Jeff Franklin, not to mention bizarre DQs and shockingly bad decisions (Santa Cruz vs Casamayor etc.)

Going in big-time with a wager can pay off, of course, but, to break away from a successful pattern and go for the big score is, to me anyway, a bit like Billy Conn going for the KO against Joe Louis when he was ahead on points. I think that you, Paul, only do this with money you are prepared to lose, and can ACCEPT losing, but our mutual friend went in big with money he could ill-afford to kiss goodbye, and I feel very sorry for him.

When a player shoots most of his wad in one big play, and it doesn't work out, it is very, very hard to build back up again, which is the predicament, Paul, in which our friend finds himself.

This is where I think Evan does a good service for his clients in trying to instill discipline, advising them to go 1%, 1.5 %, 2.5% or so on, and never advocating a massive wager, no matter how good the play might seem to be.

 

[gardenweasel]

i watch manny and i see so many things he does wrong...

his feet suck...he leans in with the lead left hand,head forward and exposed...and i shake my head and think,"what the hell am i missing"?..."why didn`t marquez take him apart"?....

i swear,when i watch pacquaio i feel like in my youinger days i could have given him trouble(obviously,i`m bigger and delusional to boot)....

i`m obviously missing the fact that he`s super quick and awkward....

i think his awkwardness...and maybe the fact that he`s hard to "pattern"....he throws the straight left but it theres nothing setting it up ususally...it just comes....

i`m still frustrated.obviously...

 

[Fightwriter]

To Crow:

Angelo was brought in mainly, I think, as a PR move and as a sort of feel-good factor. Angelo knew it was not his place to criticize what was going on even if he would have done things a bit differently. Maybe it was in his contract not to speak out on any aspects of the training camp that he found to be a bit troubling.

I'm going to cut all involved a bit of slack re. Oscar's preparation, because I don't know what was REALLY going on (although Valero's comments were pretty damning).

Fighters fight hurt, they sometimes go into fights hurt and they fight through all manner of things, Lord love them, and I know that they sometimes go through agonies in training, and all of this only comes out after the fight.

Without knowing the Oscar situation, my best guess is that in De La Hoya's camp they were sort of hoping that everything would be all right on the night. No, I do not think Oscar was disrespecting the boxing public. I think that with a massive promotion such as this, when the fight gets closer it gets very hard to pull out, if indeed Oscar was contemplating such a thing. I think that human nature compels us to go ahead and hope for the best in situations such as this.

Oscar has his millions and his fabulous lifestyle, but I think that this pasting will always be at the back of his mind in moments of quiet contemplation. This defeat was not just one-sided, it was EMBARRASSINGLY one-sided. Sure, Oscar made countless millions from the fight, but he is a proud man, yes, probably a bit vain, and my guess is that in years to come he will be wishing that he hadn't taken this fight and that the whole thing hadn't happened.

 

[weepaul]

Hello Paul

Yes, I know who you mean regarding the person who bet almost his life savings on Oscar. Luckily he is a young man and has time on his side, but the loss was devastating to him. (He told me that you advised a smaller play.)

One thing we sometimes forget is that anything can happen in a fight.

I think that you, Paul, only do this with money you are prepared to lose, and can ACCEPT losing, but our mutual friend went in big with money he could ill-afford to kiss goodbye, and I feel very sorry for him.

When a player shoots most of his wad in one big play, and it doesn't work out, it is very, very hard to build back up again, which is the predicament, Paul, in which our friend finds himself.

This is where I think Evan does a good service for his clients in trying to instill discipline, advising them to go 1%, 1.5 %, 2.5% or so on, and never advocating a massive wager, no matter how good the play might seem to be.

I'm happy we had this chat Graham and I hope our mutual friend understands he is still young and can come back from this.
He is just an all or nothing kind of guy and that can really bite you on the arse.

In regards to Evan, there are plenty of guys just as knowledgable as him. Most of the guys on this site come to mind. But you cannot beat his strategy in the long run :toast:

 

[Ghost Kid]

Regarding Pac-Hatton and Pac-Mayweather

Great fights that I would like to see...but we all know they would be more competitive than this ass-whooping

Oscar brought nothing....absolutely nothing

Amazing that Bernard can perform like a master at 43

Hatton can drop from 180 to 140 and look incredible

yet Oscar is 35, not well beaten in the past, and was a dead man walking in there

truly fighters are individually unique and everyone's body reacts differently

This I know:

Hatton and Hopkins have fighters' hearts....they are hardened men who can perform at a high level even through sickness (Hatton against Lazcano)

De La Hoya...not so much

 

[crow]

My biggest regret for this weekend : i won't be able to afford my haircut at Roach's place.

 

[gardenweasel]

Regarding Pac-Hatton and Pac-Mayweather

Great fights that I would like to see...but we all know they would be more competitive than this ass-whooping

Oscar brought nothing....absolutely nothing

Amazing that Bernard can perform like a master at 43

Hatton can drop from 180 to 140 and look incredible

yet Oscar is 35, not well beaten in the past, and was a dead man walking in there

truly fighters are individually unique and everyone's body reacts differently

This I know:

Hatton and Hopkins have fighters' hearts....they are hardened men who can perform at a high level even through sickness (Hatton against Lazcano)

De La Hoya...not so much

well said...

 

[weepaul]

Regarding Pac-Hatton and Pac-Mayweather

Great fights that I would like to see...but we all know they would be more competitive than this ass-whooping

Oscar brought nothing....absolutely nothing

Amazing that Bernard can perform like a master at 43

Hatton can drop from 180 to 140 and look incredible

yet Oscar is 35, not well beaten in the past, and was a dead man walking in there

truly fighters are individually unique and everyone's body reacts differently

This I know:

Hatton and Hopkins have fighters' hearts....they are hardened men who can perform at a high level even through sickness (Hatton against Lazcano)

De La Hoya...not so much

I love Manny and his warrior spirit BUT I believe there is money to be made betting against him.

Hatton has very fast feet for cutting the ring off and he would at least try to mug Pac, roughing him up and possibly cutting him.
He would, at least, go down swinging.

PBF should beat Pac. Floyd has a great boxing brain and unlike Oscar, would exploit his advantages.
The only thing that would concern me with Floyd is, how well speedy, southpaw Zab did against him for 4 rounds.
If Floyd waits for Pac to tire or slow down, he could be waiting all night.

 

[Kramden]

I'd pick PacMan against Hatton and Floyd. And now Floyd is getting softer as time passes and he doesn't go to regular training camps anymore. I don't think Floyd would fight him unless he really needed the money or was given a Godfather offer like $25M or more.

 

[crow]

Every fighter meeting Pac gets busted, win or lose.

PBF hates being hit and might not be powerful enough to keep Manny off him.
I think PBF gets outworked and loses a close decision.

Hatton will get beaten to the punch and stopped late ( ko or cuts) because his defense is his offense and he's aging fast.

 

[Kramden]

How about Juan Manuel Marquez coming up to meet Pac at 140. I think he is one that could handle that weight. I think he would be tougher for Pac than Hatton or PBF even though it may sound crazy to some. But Pac would probably drop him again and pull it out.

 

[crow]

Without knowing the Oscar situation, my best guess is that in De La Hoya's camp they were sort of hoping that everything would be all right on the night.
I think that with a massive promotion such as this, when the fight gets closer it gets very hard to pull out, if indeed Oscar was contemplating such a thing. I think that human nature compels us to go ahead and hope for the best in situations such as this.

Well, it's very true big promotions are very hard to cancel.

But when you're not preparing as you should, you're EFFECTIVELY PULLING OUT, without admitting it.

It would have been embarassing for Hoya to report/ cancel this, but certainly not unfeasable, since he's the promoter himself.

I believe it hapened before, sometimes just 24 hours before the event.

The damage to his reputation would have been consequent, but far less severe compared..

Some people actually applauded Vitali's honesty when he renounced his multi million purse AND CHAMPIONSHIP ; he chose to jeopardise his income ( no garanty to return) rather than his place in the sport.

Marciano was offered colossal sums for his return and refused citing the same motives.

A lot of people are wondering why they had to show up to witness an execution.

Could this mark the end for the Golden Boy Empire ?

 

[Ghost Kid]

Check this out...the guy who fought JuanMa says he took a dive....crazy shite.....

http://www.boxingscene.com/?m=show&id=17403

 

[Ghost Kid]

Regarding Oscar:

http://www.boxingscene.com/?m=show&id=17402

let the finger pointing begin