RAYMOND and fletcher go "PAY"
- Thread starter MadJack
- Start date
skulldog said:
True, and I understand that, I could just never see the sense in paying for picks, but that is JMO, and I still wish these guys good fortune in their new business. Hell, if I was as respected as these two, I may have gotten into the partnership with them, lmao!
As Red Raider said, you can call me a kiss-ass if you like. I couldn't care less. But I will be happy to admit that I have been a customer of Fletcher's for some time now. I have deposited far more checks than I have had to write out. Obviously he had some cold streaks. Every gambler except Rico and Beantown has them. Those of you that complained stuck around for a month and gave up. Well, most businesses I am aware of generally use all 12 months to assess profit/loss. A trained monkey could show a short term profit. Pay services are not for people who are simply "taking a shot." That is one reason why pay services are not the way for many people to go. If your goal it to show a long term profit, it is another thing altogether. Anybody who expects to win every day, every week, or every month is an idiot. During the time I have been a paid customer, Fletcher has posted plays here, too. He apologized to me for doing so, but said he felt it was still the right thing to do. It didn't bother me then, nor will it bother me if he continues to do so. I fully understand that some, in fact, most of you, have a strong objection to paying for plays. And that is ok. But there is no reason to bad mouth or question the ethics of Fletcher. You will not find a more stand up guy, in my opinion. As always, I wish the best of luck to all the cappers here at MJ's. The world will continue to spin and the sooner everyone gets over this, the better it will be for all of us.
Fletch and RAYMOND I wish you well.
I see a few "coattailers" are upset that you both are leaving, well ya'll expected that I'm sure.
Not to worry they will get over it and find others to follow.
(don't lose sleep over them)
I, for one, have never followed anyones elses picks. nor would I ever. I make decisions on my own. Be it winning or losing I can only blame one person and that's myself.
I'm here for the write-ups (information) and sharing that
is what MJs is all about.
Kick some Major league butt in bases guys and........
Rock Chalk Jayhawk
Lanny
I see a few "coattailers" are upset that you both are leaving, well ya'll expected that I'm sure.
Not to worry they will get over it and find others to follow.
(don't lose sleep over them)
I, for one, have never followed anyones elses picks. nor would I ever. I make decisions on my own. Be it winning or losing I can only blame one person and that's myself.
I'm here for the write-ups (information) and sharing that
is what MJs is all about.
Kick some Major league butt in bases guys and........
Rock Chalk Jayhawk
Lanny
Let them go, the curse will get them and they'll be back.
It's unfortunate that people lose sight of what is important, beating the man. Over confidence is something to keep in check.
JUST WHEN YOU THINK YOUR ON TOP, THE RUG GETS PULLED FROM BENEATH. I'll bet these two struggle to hit 50%.
Anyone have the stats on JT or Hoops? I've got to believe they're not doing as well as they thought.
What dumb ass would pay for someone else's picks anyway?
It's unfortunate that people lose sight of what is important, beating the man. Over confidence is something to keep in check.
JUST WHEN YOU THINK YOUR ON TOP, THE RUG GETS PULLED FROM BENEATH. I'll bet these two struggle to hit 50%.
Anyone have the stats on JT or Hoops? I've got to believe they're not doing as well as they thought.
What dumb ass would pay for someone else's picks anyway?
An interesting thread nonetheless. . . I am personally torn on the issue for the following reasons:
1. I think those who say "well, if you make enough gambling on your own, why do you need others to pay you for your picks?" makes sense on principle. However, the answer is obvious in that everyone would always go for the extra couple bucks when they can. We live in that kind of society people (capitalistic to be exact)! Whether fletcher and Raymond bet thousands or not, a couple hundred bucks a month could pay off a couple bills. Every little bit counts and Ray will probably use this money to bet his 10 team parlays! LOL
2. Those who don't have time to cap their own games should expect to pay for winning sides! You either pay for it with your own time like Ray, fletcher, myself, and others do or if you don't have the time, you should be willing to put up the money to pay for them. For some reason, there are the few in here that believe Ray, fletcher, and all the quality cappers (no I am not calling myself a quality capper) OWE them winning picks (as indicated by their attitude alone). That is ridiculous!
3. However, with that being said, the principle behind selling your picks still gets to me for the following reason: You are getting paid EVEN IF YOU LOSE. If Ray and Fletcher offered refunds for losing weeks, months, or whatever, then that would seem fair to me (perhaps somthing for them to consider). Obviously they should only get paid if they are winning. It could be argued that they (fletcher and Ray) will pay for it in the end because customers will stop using their service, but those unhappy customers would still not receive a refund.
Anyways, this is the kind of crap that concerns me. . . I think Ray and fletcher have always been excellent contributers and I'm sure they know what they are getting into. . . if they were concerned before about others following their picks when they were on a losing skid, imagine how they will feel if this happens when they are getting paid. Not the kind of concern that I would want but then again, these two are much better cappers than I am so maybe they'll survive!
I wish them well because economically (if you choose to look at it that way) this is a win/win situation for Ray, fletcher, and their customers as long as they WIN!
Good luck and don't forget about us. . .we can always use you help!
1. I think those who say "well, if you make enough gambling on your own, why do you need others to pay you for your picks?" makes sense on principle. However, the answer is obvious in that everyone would always go for the extra couple bucks when they can. We live in that kind of society people (capitalistic to be exact)! Whether fletcher and Raymond bet thousands or not, a couple hundred bucks a month could pay off a couple bills. Every little bit counts and Ray will probably use this money to bet his 10 team parlays! LOL
2. Those who don't have time to cap their own games should expect to pay for winning sides! You either pay for it with your own time like Ray, fletcher, myself, and others do or if you don't have the time, you should be willing to put up the money to pay for them. For some reason, there are the few in here that believe Ray, fletcher, and all the quality cappers (no I am not calling myself a quality capper) OWE them winning picks (as indicated by their attitude alone). That is ridiculous!
3. However, with that being said, the principle behind selling your picks still gets to me for the following reason: You are getting paid EVEN IF YOU LOSE. If Ray and Fletcher offered refunds for losing weeks, months, or whatever, then that would seem fair to me (perhaps somthing for them to consider). Obviously they should only get paid if they are winning. It could be argued that they (fletcher and Ray) will pay for it in the end because customers will stop using their service, but those unhappy customers would still not receive a refund.
Anyways, this is the kind of crap that concerns me. . . I think Ray and fletcher have always been excellent contributers and I'm sure they know what they are getting into. . . if they were concerned before about others following their picks when they were on a losing skid, imagine how they will feel if this happens when they are getting paid. Not the kind of concern that I would want but then again, these two are much better cappers than I am so maybe they'll survive!
I wish them well because economically (if you choose to look at it that way) this is a win/win situation for Ray, fletcher, and their customers as long as they WIN!
Good luck and don't forget about us. . .we can always use you help!
I think most would agree that the character of these two individuals is not the thing that's on trial here. I think what most are concerned with is what were the true intentions of Ray & Fletch for ever coming to this site in the 1st place. With their announced decision to start a "Pay" service, I believe it's obvious to most everyone.
It's no secret that 99% of professional gamblers LOSE money in the long run. There aren't a handful of people that have kept exact and detailed W/L records in regards to gambling, that have found themselves way ahead of the pack. Rich one day, poor the next. It's possible to have good W/L records for 1 year, or even 2 or 3, where in each individual sport, the person was on the positive side in units won. But the law of averages and numerous other things will eventually eat into those profits, and in the long run, you're fortunately either where ya started, or dug yourself a very very very DEEP hole. 1% of the population in this entire universe can consistently make money year in year out betting on sporting events. Lots of folks don't like to look at the big picture, and this is probably THE MAIN reason that most gamblers don't like to keep detailed records. Doing such, would be a drawn out blueprint that your endeavor has failed. I know, b/c there is a person in my immediate family that DOES do this for a living.
He started out like most everyone else, selecting particular teams based upon news blips from ESPN or some other info. he dug out of the paper or a magazine. After numerous failed attempts, he finally realized that if he was gonna continue to do this and make a decent living, he was gonna have to get on the other side of the coin. Instead of makin' bets, he started taking them; which in a round about way, is exactly what Ray and Fletch are doing. If you're seriously gonna pursue a career in professional gambling, you either better be taking people's bets or making people pay for YOUR bets. Any other way, is a shortcut to the poor house. Residual income in this biz. is of the utmost importance. Like I stated earlier, there are a few exceptions to the rule, but most have to find other avenues to supplement theiir gambling income, b/c they couldn't stick to their original plan.
Many thousands of posts ago, I can distinctly remember making fun of ANYONE that tried to sell their picks to the unsuspecting and foolish public. This sentiment was expressed by most everyone that posted here at Jack's place. Some of these goofs would even pop in to tout their service, and they'd be met with a barrage of hilarious remarks and comments. Over the years, there is no telling how many touts we all made fun of. DAMN, how times have changed. If someone would have bet me that four of the most popular posters at MadJacks would have had Pay sites of their own, run by the creator of this wonderful place, I, quite frankly, wouldn't have believed them. But really knowing what I know about the ins and the outs of the industry, it really makes quite good sense.
Fletch, it's no secret that you've developed quite a few friendships since you started coming around. I truly hope your intentions were sincere, and had nothing to do with fostering a business relationship based upon your announced news today.
All in all, I SINCERELY hope you guys find fullfillment and happiness in your new undertaking, but I think you'd agree that the odds stacked against your customers, will be extremely hard to overcome. If you truly want to differentiate yourself from the others, why not offer a money-back guarantee? I know.....I know....you're much smarter than that!
It's no secret that 99% of professional gamblers LOSE money in the long run. There aren't a handful of people that have kept exact and detailed W/L records in regards to gambling, that have found themselves way ahead of the pack. Rich one day, poor the next. It's possible to have good W/L records for 1 year, or even 2 or 3, where in each individual sport, the person was on the positive side in units won. But the law of averages and numerous other things will eventually eat into those profits, and in the long run, you're fortunately either where ya started, or dug yourself a very very very DEEP hole. 1% of the population in this entire universe can consistently make money year in year out betting on sporting events. Lots of folks don't like to look at the big picture, and this is probably THE MAIN reason that most gamblers don't like to keep detailed records. Doing such, would be a drawn out blueprint that your endeavor has failed. I know, b/c there is a person in my immediate family that DOES do this for a living.
He started out like most everyone else, selecting particular teams based upon news blips from ESPN or some other info. he dug out of the paper or a magazine. After numerous failed attempts, he finally realized that if he was gonna continue to do this and make a decent living, he was gonna have to get on the other side of the coin. Instead of makin' bets, he started taking them; which in a round about way, is exactly what Ray and Fletch are doing. If you're seriously gonna pursue a career in professional gambling, you either better be taking people's bets or making people pay for YOUR bets. Any other way, is a shortcut to the poor house. Residual income in this biz. is of the utmost importance. Like I stated earlier, there are a few exceptions to the rule, but most have to find other avenues to supplement theiir gambling income, b/c they couldn't stick to their original plan.
Many thousands of posts ago, I can distinctly remember making fun of ANYONE that tried to sell their picks to the unsuspecting and foolish public. This sentiment was expressed by most everyone that posted here at Jack's place. Some of these goofs would even pop in to tout their service, and they'd be met with a barrage of hilarious remarks and comments. Over the years, there is no telling how many touts we all made fun of. DAMN, how times have changed. If someone would have bet me that four of the most popular posters at MadJacks would have had Pay sites of their own, run by the creator of this wonderful place, I, quite frankly, wouldn't have believed them. But really knowing what I know about the ins and the outs of the industry, it really makes quite good sense.
Fletch, it's no secret that you've developed quite a few friendships since you started coming around. I truly hope your intentions were sincere, and had nothing to do with fostering a business relationship based upon your announced news today.
All in all, I SINCERELY hope you guys find fullfillment and happiness in your new undertaking, but I think you'd agree that the odds stacked against your customers, will be extremely hard to overcome. If you truly want to differentiate yourself from the others, why not offer a money-back guarantee? I know.....I know....you're much smarter than that!
well put Neemer......
anyone with any sense knows that tout services are a losing proposition in the long run.....unless you are the one selling your picks....or have a near infinite bankroll
i myself am a bit wary because it seemed to me that both guys did an aweful lot of slapping each other on the back....especially in the last few weeks.....but if people are foolish enough to pay for undocumented records and hundreds of dollars for opinions, so be it.....reading these guys handles instantly reminded me of similar things i hear on the radio on a 1-800 number.....
also i wonder how someone could come on here and feel free to read everyone else's opinion yet feel the need to charge for their own......
also wonder what would happen if someone posted these guys picks.....what would happen then?......censorship of information?....would be a sign of the times on this board and one which would lead it to collapse IMO.....
anyone with any sense knows that tout services are a losing proposition in the long run.....unless you are the one selling your picks....or have a near infinite bankroll
i myself am a bit wary because it seemed to me that both guys did an aweful lot of slapping each other on the back....especially in the last few weeks.....but if people are foolish enough to pay for undocumented records and hundreds of dollars for opinions, so be it.....reading these guys handles instantly reminded me of similar things i hear on the radio on a 1-800 number.....
also i wonder how someone could come on here and feel free to read everyone else's opinion yet feel the need to charge for their own......
also wonder what would happen if someone posted these guys picks.....what would happen then?......censorship of information?....would be a sign of the times on this board and one which would lead it to collapse IMO.....
Who cares? Tough shit. For those of you who think it is better to do homework than pay for picks, I agree. But some don't want to do that; they just want to enjoy the game and reap the rewards of other's tireless efforts; much like invesment banking, or stock-market investing.
These guys never claimed they hit 100%, so I am tired of people saying, "if they are so good why don't they just make larger bets." Because they have good business-head. And they want to make more money for doing their own research; something that most can't do for themselves. And apparently, because they are good at what they do, they are crucified.
Shame on you. Especially those of you have been padding the account with their expertise and ****ing patience with all the degenerates who wander in-and-out.
If they claimed an outlandish "tout-like" winning percentage, then yes, there should be reason for alarm. But they haven't, and for that you should give them cyber-accolades.
LATER ON to all the jealous homebodies; the gambling-world doesn't have room for crybabies.
SLEW
These guys never claimed they hit 100%, so I am tired of people saying, "if they are so good why don't they just make larger bets." Because they have good business-head. And they want to make more money for doing their own research; something that most can't do for themselves. And apparently, because they are good at what they do, they are crucified.
Shame on you. Especially those of you have been padding the account with their expertise and ****ing patience with all the degenerates who wander in-and-out.
If they claimed an outlandish "tout-like" winning percentage, then yes, there should be reason for alarm. But they haven't, and for that you should give them cyber-accolades.
LATER ON to all the jealous homebodies; the gambling-world doesn't have room for crybabies.
SLEW
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Neemer,
Where did you get the 1% figure from? I've heard that less than 1% of all gamblers win money, but I always thought that was from the casinos where the dice and the cards will get you no matter how much money you put in.
Where did you get the 1% figure from? I've heard that less than 1% of all gamblers win money, but I always thought that was from the casinos where the dice and the cards will get you no matter how much money you put in.
Excellent Post, Neemer!
Excellent Post, Neemer!
Neemer, you've done an A+ job with your analysis of this situation! Props!
Dr. Freeze and others:
FYI, the domain name for this "venture" was originally created/registered on July 22, 2001! Hmmmmmmmm.......approximately 8 months ago! It appears the idea behind this venture just didn't spring up overnight, eh?
Also, Mad Jack, I received your threatening e-mail yesterday! Why? For posting the arin.net/whois search results for the identity of the OFFICIAL REGISTRANT of this venture! Everyone knows you own that site, so how is it you're "working for" Fletcher and Raymond? Bottem line is that info is PUBLIC RECORD, and anyone with Net access can find the same for themselves! :nono:
Again, GL2 Fletcher and Raymond!
The ensuing months for this fledgling enterprise sould prove to be interesting.
BTW, will this new venture of Fletcher's, Raymond's (and "Whitey's") be MONITORED? If so, where? That way, we can ALL see how they're doing on a daily basis!
Excellent Post, Neemer!
Neemer, you've done an A+ job with your analysis of this situation! Props!
Dr. Freeze and others:
FYI, the domain name for this "venture" was originally created/registered on July 22, 2001! Hmmmmmmmm.......approximately 8 months ago! It appears the idea behind this venture just didn't spring up overnight, eh?
Also, Mad Jack, I received your threatening e-mail yesterday! Why? For posting the arin.net/whois search results for the identity of the OFFICIAL REGISTRANT of this venture! Everyone knows you own that site, so how is it you're "working for" Fletcher and Raymond? Bottem line is that info is PUBLIC RECORD, and anyone with Net access can find the same for themselves! :nono:
Again, GL2 Fletcher and Raymond!
The ensuing months for this fledgling enterprise sould prove to be interesting.
BTW, will this new venture of Fletcher's, Raymond's (and "Whitey's") be MONITORED? If so, where? That way, we can ALL see how they're doing on a daily basis!
Crack Rat,
If it's possible, you come off even more ignorant about this subject than the 'Aces' deal.
The fact that he registered that domain in July does not mean that this thing was planned since then. Have you ever heard of acquiring desirable url's for (whatever) future use? He didn't register 'ray and fletch's picks.com' back in July. Gamblersdata.com could be used for anything gambling related.
You seem to have a real problem with anybody expanding their horizons in an effort to run another business. WTF is that all about? The Soviet Union circa 1965 seems about your speed.
Why would you care if they are monitored? Really, are you THAT interested? Have you been monitoring them for the last couple of years? It sure seems like you have that level of interest all of a sudden.
Judging by your 376 posts on the subject over at that cesspool of a forum that you call home, it sure seems like the jealousy bug has bit. You just can't get over this.
The bottom line is that the customers will decide if this is worth it. If the guys don't do well, then well, they won't do well. If customers decide that they are ahead by paying for the service, then they will re-up. If not, then they are out maybe at the most $200.
It's really not worth revolving your life around, buddy.
If it's possible, you come off even more ignorant about this subject than the 'Aces' deal.
The fact that he registered that domain in July does not mean that this thing was planned since then. Have you ever heard of acquiring desirable url's for (whatever) future use? He didn't register 'ray and fletch's picks.com' back in July. Gamblersdata.com could be used for anything gambling related.
You seem to have a real problem with anybody expanding their horizons in an effort to run another business. WTF is that all about? The Soviet Union circa 1965 seems about your speed.
Why would you care if they are monitored? Really, are you THAT interested? Have you been monitoring them for the last couple of years? It sure seems like you have that level of interest all of a sudden.
Judging by your 376 posts on the subject over at that cesspool of a forum that you call home, it sure seems like the jealousy bug has bit. You just can't get over this.
The bottom line is that the customers will decide if this is worth it. If the guys don't do well, then well, they won't do well. If customers decide that they are ahead by paying for the service, then they will re-up. If not, then they are out maybe at the most $200.
It's really not worth revolving your life around, buddy.
and, you can lookup:
www.sportsbookmakers.com
www.sportsbookmarks.com
www.nhlcapper.com
www.bestbettor.com
www.madjacksports.com
www.gamblersdata.com
some are not being used YET.
I have my own dedicated server and some domains I own. Maybe one day the others will have some use as well.
Don't come here speculating on what you THINK you know, when you have NO CLUE!
hey everybody! meet Crack Rat!
www.sportsbookmakers.com
www.sportsbookmarks.com
www.nhlcapper.com
www.bestbettor.com
www.madjacksports.com
www.gamblersdata.com
some are not being used YET.
I have my own dedicated server and some domains I own. Maybe one day the others will have some use as well.
Don't come here speculating on what you THINK you know, when you have NO CLUE!
hey everybody! meet Crack Rat!
interesting thread.
basically agree with posts from Code Red, A1, Nickelback. in the long run do not believe pay sites are good for the gambler.
you have to win a higher percentage of games to cover the amount you pay for the service. As for monitering I think it is a good idea for even pay cappers to have themselves monitered, it does not cost much and can show people how really good they are.
Seatle Slew I found your post interesting.
Who cares? Tough shit. For those of you who think it is better to do homework than pay for picks, I agree. But some don't want to do that; they just want to enjoy the game and reap the rewards of other's tireless efforts; much like invesment banking, or stock-market investing.
I find many people that use to much trust when it comes to money; end up losing their investments often in things they do not understand.
wether the business is a sucess depends on how many people want to spend money for picks, time will tell.
not for me though, to many good cappers that give usefull information and picks for free.
thanks
selkirk
basically agree with posts from Code Red, A1, Nickelback. in the long run do not believe pay sites are good for the gambler.
you have to win a higher percentage of games to cover the amount you pay for the service. As for monitering I think it is a good idea for even pay cappers to have themselves monitered, it does not cost much and can show people how really good they are.
Seatle Slew I found your post interesting.
Who cares? Tough shit. For those of you who think it is better to do homework than pay for picks, I agree. But some don't want to do that; they just want to enjoy the game and reap the rewards of other's tireless efforts; much like invesment banking, or stock-market investing.
I find many people that use to much trust when it comes to money; end up losing their investments often in things they do not understand.
wether the business is a sucess depends on how many people want to spend money for picks, time will tell.
not for me though, to many good cappers that give usefull information and picks for free.
thanks
selkirk
Jack,
Don?t even bother getting into a discussion with this rodent. I don?t think anyone that has been here would ever question your integrity. On the other hand, what we know about Crack Rat is :
-He?s stolen plays and analysis and posted them as his own.
-He lost $35,000 in his picks posted free of charge.
-Says that he?s rich, yet CHOOSES to stay at a Motel 6.
-Says he?s a lawyer, yet doesn?t fully understand law.
-Went to Vegas with all the other Madjackers and NOONE liked him.
-Only posts when he wants to start a controversy or wants to ask Kosar if he?ll buy him some lap dances. Never has anything to say about handicapping.
In total, he really isn?t worth your time. Without question, this is still the best posting forum on the net and it is thanks to you and the members who post valuable information.
Don?t even bother getting into a discussion with this rodent. I don?t think anyone that has been here would ever question your integrity. On the other hand, what we know about Crack Rat is :
-He?s stolen plays and analysis and posted them as his own.
-He lost $35,000 in his picks posted free of charge.
-Says that he?s rich, yet CHOOSES to stay at a Motel 6.
-Says he?s a lawyer, yet doesn?t fully understand law.
-Went to Vegas with all the other Madjackers and NOONE liked him.
-Only posts when he wants to start a controversy or wants to ask Kosar if he?ll buy him some lap dances. Never has anything to say about handicapping.
In total, he really isn?t worth your time. Without question, this is still the best posting forum on the net and it is thanks to you and the members who post valuable information.
i can honestly say that i thought he was ok. actually, i kinda liked him, even though i didn't get to spend too much time getting to know him better.
what blows my mind is how a person's personality can completely change when they sit behind the keyboard. i just don't understand. :shrug:
JACK........
JACK........
You aint gonna like me then Jack because my personality doesn't change...
Have a good day man!
KMAC
JACK........
You aint gonna like me then Jack because my personality doesn't change...
Have a good day man!
KMAC
Will someone please remove this idiot Crack Rodent away from a PC access?
This loser contributes nothing but stirring up controversy. Why is this guy still allowed to post here?
Eddie Haskell.........meet Crack Rat:thefinger
This loser contributes nothing but stirring up controversy. Why is this guy still allowed to post here?
Eddie Haskell.........meet Crack Rat:thefinger
i usually don't comment on these subjects, so this will be my first and last time. for all you guys that continually bash crackrat and eddie among others, don't you realize that when you reply to them it just refuels them to keep on going. if madjack won't get rid of them then if all you other people did'nt respond to them then they would basically be just talking to themselves. and as the old saying gos; ignore it and it will go away.
I've been coming to this site for a little over a year. At first I came just to see what people had to say and to look at different info. people posted. I've since started posting some of my picks(not to good of ones at that). The reason I continued coming here was because it seemed to be more of a fraternity of gamblers and people sharing and helping as much as their expertise would allow. I don't have a problem with Ray and Fletch going pay, I really wish you both all the luck in the world. My only problem is that if theyre going to do it then do it. MJ seems to be going against everything I thought this site stood for. Because he's in a partnership with them he has changed some of the rules.(i know i know, its his site he could do as he pleases. I agree, but I'm just saying this seems to be against what hes preached in the past)
I love this place and spend a lot of my days here looking to see what everyone has to say, but it seems to be a place for people to build theyre name so that they can prosper from others.
My only question is who's next? And if someone does do this again, will MJ give them the amount of pub. fletch and Ray are getting?
I love this place and spend a lot of my days here looking to see what everyone has to say, but it seems to be a place for people to build theyre name so that they can prosper from others.
My only question is who's next? And if someone does do this again, will MJ give them the amount of pub. fletch and Ray are getting?
